1860 cylinder gap

[54mountain]

I have a Pietta 1860 army that has a reverse problem from most that I've seen. The cylinder gap is so close that after the first 6 shots the cylinder starts to bind from fowling, in a way I'm okay with this because the cylinder pin stays clean and it shoots great. I just find it a pain to take it apart and wipe it down every time I load.

My question is what was the standard gap on the originals (if there was one) and any ideas on how to correct this.

 

[mb3]

I am no expert at colt pistols ( I have only been shooting BP Colts for a little over a yer), but I have found if I push the wedge in tight on my Dragoon the cylinder gets more difficult to rotate as the weapon gets dirty. When I re assemble my Dragoon I push the wedge in just enough and all is well. Hope this helps.

 

[curator]

Use an automotive "feeler-gage" and drive the barrel wedge in until you get a cylinder/barrel space of about .006 to .007.

 

[54mountain]

Curator.

thanks! thats the info I was looking for, right now with just thumb pressure you cannot see light through the gap although the cylinder turns freely. I'm guessing maybe .002 gap I cannot slip a piece of paper into th gap

 

[CaptainKirk]

Gap should be around .010 for optimum performance.

 

[Zonie]

I think a gap of .008-.010 is about right for a cap & ball pistol.

Folks used to modern revolvers think this large of gap is way too big but they are used to shooting guns that fire smokeless powder.

If modern guns had to shoot powder that fouls like black powder does you can bet they would have these large gaps too.

When these old style revolvers were popular a little side blast and loss of velocity was considered a small price to pay for reliability that comes with a cylinder gap this large.

As for the Colt's wedge and its effect on the barrel gap, ideally the barrel will bottom on the end of the cylinder pin when the wedge is moderately tight and the cylinder gap will be correct.

Unfortunatly, many of the reproductions (and some originals) barrels will not bottom out on the cylinder pin which forces the rear of the barrel tight against the front of the cylinder.

If your gun is one of these, learn how far the barrel wedge should be inserted to give the barrel/cylinder gap your after. Then use that knowledge when you assemble your gun after cleaning.

It won't cause any problem for the wedge to be installed "snug" rather than tight if that is what it takes to keep the cylinder from locking up due to fouling.
It is safe to shoot the gun in this condition.

 

[MSW]

for what it's worth, i just measured a piece of 20 pound copy paper (the generic stuff we all use in our printers) and it was .004.

my gaps are about twice that, so i'm pretty close to what Zonie recommends.

 

[54mountain]

Thanks for the info I'll try to play with it today and see what I can come up with. Will let ya'all know what I come up with.

Thanks again for everything

Galen

 

[crockett]

On the later "Peacemaker" Colt 1873 there was a bushing that fit into the cylinder and then the cylinder pin fit into the bushing. This bushing was a tube and a rim at the front end. The thickness of the rim set the gap. I am not sure whether or not you could get some type of steel washer that cold fit on the end of the cylinder.
But, be sure that's the problem and not the hand binding in the racket teeth, etc. Once the problem starts- does it jam on every chamber or just some (the same chamber)? Does the cleaning in the field solve the problem?

 

[54mountain]

the cylinder just gets harder and harder to turn the more you shoot it.

Yes, wiping the cylinder face and forcing cone with a damp cloth takes care of the problem till you load it up and shoot it again.


I tried to leave the barrel wedge flush with the back side of the frame, and the gap opened to about .006. guess I'll try it and see what happens
:wink:
Galen

 

[Zonie]

The problem of rotating the cylinder in these old cap and ball revolvers is not new.

In 1858 F. Beal patented the design for what we currently call the 1858 Remington. http://www.american-firearms.com/a... & Sons/pic/44-cal-beals-army-8inch-right.jpg

This gun was not produced until 1860 when Remington tried to sell it to the U.S. government.

During testing the gun locked up with great regularity because the rear of the barrel was not able to scrape off the fouling from the front of the cylinder. The Army rejected it because of this.

Because the Remington-Beals was a closed frame gun there was no way to adjust the cylinder gap so Remington and Beals redesigned this area of the gun to have a large space between the frame and the front of the cylinder with only the sharp edges of the barrel projecting aft towards the cylinders face.
These sharp edges did a fair job of scraping off the fouling and resulted in the U.S. Army buying many of the "Remington New Army" models.

Below is a photo showing the difference

 

[MSW]

thanks for the post... i always wondered about what was "new" in the new army

 

[Zonie]

Fixing the cylinder fouling issue, eliminating a interim design feature that allowed the cylinder to be removed without lowering the loading lever and adding safety notches to the rear of the cylinder for the hammer nose to rest in are the main differences.

Now, back to the Colt fouling questions.

 

[rmonday2]

54mountain I was wondering what powder charge you were using?
I can tell a big difference in fowling on my Ruger old army when I reduced my load from a 38 brass full of 3f goex which is around 25 to 27gr down to 22gr which is about an 8th inch shy of full in a 38 special case.
That doesn't sound like much but it went from a cakey crud film to a light smoke on the front of the cylinder,and i can wipe that clean between loading with a rag and turning the cylinder while in the frame.

 

[crockett]

Maybe the problem also has to do with too much powder, etc. Are you using fffg Black? Is the ball shaving a ring of lead when you seat it? If the ball fits loose there may be gas cutting and excess fouling. Try using a wad over the powder and under the ball. Maybe if you play around with the loading you can get a load with less fouling. The only other thing would be if the chambers aren't lining up straight with the barrel but I think in that case it would be a lead build up, not powder residue. If you are wiping the face of the cylinder and that does the trick, it sounds like powder.
There are also some substitute powders that are supposed to burn clean- I haven't used any but they might solve the problem.
In short, I always favor anything that doesn't require irreversible changes to the gun. Try some different loads, wads, powders, etc.

 

[54mountain]

I'm using 28g fffg Goex, lubed wonder wad and .451 round ball which shaves off a nice ring.

The cylinder locks up square with the barrel and it works fine after wiping.

I'll take it out this weekend and see how it works with the wedge flush with the frame and see if that helps. Also will reduce my powder charge as suggested.

Thanks again
Galen

 

[Mike 56]

Try adding a dab of Crisco over the balls. Don't fill the chamber mouths just a little bit over each ball. My load for my 1860 Colt is a 25gr spout of fff powder (about 23gr), one hand punched 1/8 hard felt wad lubed with Pam cooking spray or silicone spray lube, 454 ball and a little bit of Crisco over each ball. This load is very
accurate in my 1860 Colt. The lube might keep the fouling soft so the cylinder does not bind.
Mike

 

[54mountain]

I've been using lubed wonder wads and haven't really thought of lubing the cylinders, although I have with other pistols.

It rained here all weekend so I haven't made to the range yet to try all of your suggestions, one of them is bound to work :haha:

Thanks again
Galen

 

[Kevin Berry]

Gap should be around .010 for optimum performance.

I sanded my cyclinder face and barrel because the edges were sharp. I started worrying about the cyclinder gap I created. I was starting to worry I would need to buy a new barrel and cyclinder. I saw your post, grabbed my feeler guages, and .010 barely fits with slight effort. You made my day! Thank you!

 

[Ed C.]

My experience with my guns is that they run better with a smaller cylinder gap. From .002" ( or even .0015") to .004". With a smaller gap less fouling is blown out. Other than binding from caps I can easily shoot 24 to 30 rounds ( my normal session for any one gun) with no problem. I use a 1/8" felt wad soaked in a 1:1 beeswax/olive oil mix over powder.