Will the bottom fall out of the custom build business?

Gordoncourtney said:

Everything is illegal in uk.

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Not working out very well for you guys.

Should have fought harder for your freedom and liberty.

Being raised in a Family Business , I learned Early about having a Good WORK ETHIC...We were NEVER over paid NOR under worked...I was referred to as a EXPERT pyrotechnician, I would STOP the speaker right there. My Occupation was Pyrotechnics , My reply was that ALL the EXPERTS are DEAD, Due over confidence. And PROFESSIONAL doesn't mean that you are any Good at the JOB , ONLY that you are paid to do it..WE were VERY GOOD at our JOB , Our Family Name demanded it. When I would have an IDEA for a new EFFECT or Design , I would have to Sell it to the customer FIRST, Then I could BUILD it, So REPUTATION was EVERYTHING, We had a few Customers that would COMMISION Any new Effect, As long as it was used on THIER SHOW FIRST. As a side job I opened a GUN shop. Same Work ethic, Reputation first. Over time the GUN shop paid for us to build OUR NEW HOUSE. My Gun collections, YES collections plural. Are about 15-20% Black powder. I have Built a total of 1 M/L and that was a kit ,So I really didn't build it I put it together and finished it. Unmentionables are another story. I have never COMMISSIONED a gun. I will do my very best to build what I want as I want it. If Someone else wants it more than I do So be it. Building for Myself is HAPPY TIME. Building for others is WORK. I have mentioned before that I have been Disabled for 50 yrs. (Spinal / Nerve injury ) Building anything from a knick knack to a house With These SHAKY OLD HANDS is HAPPY TIME. I still have My reputation and help and Mentor as I am asked....I'm just playing the cards that were dealt me, 1 day at a time.

Stantheman86 said:

The Italian repros of the military muskets and rifles make really good "base" guns for defarbs

Plus the Parker-Hale Enfields and .451 rifles are kind of becoming "original reproductions " and prices are reflecting the higher quality of these guns.

I buy muzzleloaders to shoot , if they all aren't 100% true to originals it's not a big deal

Pedersoli makes really good shooting rifles, with high quality barrels. The Blue River and Rocky Mountain Hawken from Pedersoli are probably the best "production " Hawkens you can currently get, that are somewhat close to historically accurate. I have one of each and they're good enough for me, and they certainly aren't cheap. I don't need a custom rifle to go punch paper.

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I only owned one Pedersoli Bess, and it had been very heavily used when I got it. I cleaned it a lot and was able to continue shooting it. I have no complaints about the durability or function, and I’d definitely another Pedersoli. That Bess got me interested in the evolution of English muskets - before that I could barely visualize what had changed from the 1720’s through the American Revolution. But given the choice, I’d still prefer an “older” gun from the early 1700’s. Pedersoli had to cater to every market from Seven Years War through the Napoleonic Wars, so they keep selling a musket that almost does that.

Really, something standardized like a musket is a logical choice for CNC. A rack of almost identical muskets is what you’d have hoped to see in 1770 too.

FishDFly said:

"It’s possible that anything from an old doglock fowler, a long land Bess, fusils de chasse - almost anything might emerge in next few years."

And just who is going to buy them?

Who has the money? How many will you buy?

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Well, the N-SSA and NMLRA aren't dead yet.

I think he's got a good point. If Kibler can produce $1000 kits, and Pedersolis are going to cost $1500, you start to wonder what other kinds of guns Kibler could produce.

oops

Comfortably_Numb said:

Does anybody have the Cliff's Notes version of this? Ain't no way I'm reading all of that.

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Inflation is killing hobbies, Stupid Gun laws keeps them alive.

Uncle Miltie said:

Younger generations have no interest in traditional muzzleloaders, and the customer base will eventually dry up.

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The pool is getting smaller as tone goes by but I do not personally believe it will dry up. I have three children, 17, 16 and 14. I have made sure to introduce them to all manners of shooting sports/hunting. One has a 54 Hawkins. One has a 50 and my daughter is lethal with her 32 squirrel rifle. They own modern day firearms as well. However, come Sunday afternoon, you can find four buckets filled with hot water and a little soup. Everyone's got their own to clean and bragging rights found on ball punched paper!

It's up to us to make it interesting for our children. If we will put in the time, they will pick em up and carry the "torch". I have personally tripled the my foot print by just taking time to answer every question and teach them what I know. Nothing better than your son saying, "dad, you could have been Jeremiah Johnson."

No.
Robby

At 50 I want the best I can buy within my means I bumped up from a tc hawken and bought a kibler woodsrunner it is by far the best firearm in own....I am going to save up as I want a 1816 Springfield flinter

Jedidiah said:

Does it matter if you have a "Woodsrunner" or a Colonial, or a Tulle de Chase or a Trade Gun, Fowler or Smooth rifle?

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At 67 and having had two rebuilds of the left ankle (some stupid thought that it would be funny to step on my foot when I went for a hook shot at a church league basketball game. You know those 2 bones in the lower leg? Yep, you can get them to cross one over the another! ). The last surgeon, Dr. Li at UTSW was the instructor on how to do lower leg surgery there (and he wrote the book for resident physicians) told me that it would be when not if they would put a titanium rod up from the foot into the shin bone to fuse my left leg if I went back to running at night. Pre-incident, did 6 to 21 miles per night. Sigh, dumb azzez. So, at best, I'm a "Woodswalker" now days. And that pounding pulse in my left ankle tells me that Dallas is going to have a good storm in a couple of hours…
Am going to fire up the kettlebell and Captain of Crunch hand grips to keep the body going.

maillemaker said:

Well, the N-SSA and NMLRA aren't dead yet.

I think he's got a good point. If Kibler can produce $1000 kits, and Pedersolis are going to cost $1500, you start to wonder what other kinds of guns Kibler could produce.

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I am hopefully that Mr. Kibler can patent his process or expand his current production to other lines. One of the major disincentives in getting into either N-SSA or NMLRA competition is the cost of the weapons. As I explained in another thread, the $1.7K for just one of the 3 muskets needed for N-SSA competition presents financial challenges to a lot of people. And that $1.7K can buy a $199 striker fired pistol, 3 mags, a 1K case of ammo, $12.95 kydex that is perfectly fine for IDPA or USPSA matches. And you clean it once a year if it needs it or not. Plus, you have $$$ left over. Now sell a ML hobby with its known snobbery of who is/is not PC/HC vs. the "glad to see ya' and lets pop some caps" crowd in other shooting disciplines.

Now if (and I know about 'if' and frog's buttocks while hopping), he could make runs of different makes of ML could reduce the entry costs. It would be nice if he would make Hawkins, Harper Ferry .54, Trade Guns, and CW muskets. May well be daydreaming at this point.……

wganz said:

I am hopefully that Mr. Kibler can patent his process or expand his current production to other lines. One of the major disincentives in getting into either N-SSA or NMLRA competition is the cost of the weapons. As I explained in another thread, the $1.7K for just one of the 3 muskets needed for N-SSA competition presents financial challenges to a lot of people. And that $1.7K can buy a $199 striker fired pistol, 3 mags, a 1K case of ammo, $12.95 kydex that is perfectly fine for IDPA or USPSA matches. And you clean it once a year if it needs it or not. Plus, you have $$$ left over. Now sell a ML hobby with its known snobbery of who is/is not PC/HC vs. the "glad to see ya' and lets pop some caps" crowd in other shooting disciplines.

Now if (and I know about 'if' and frog's buttocks while hopping), he could make runs of different makes of ML could reduce the entry costs. It would be nice if he would make Hawkins, Harper Ferry .54, Trade Guns, and CW muskets. May well be daydreaming at this point.……

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Why do you want him to patent his process?

As near as I can tell he hasnt reinvented the wheel - hes just really good at applying and tuning existing CNC techniques and he puts his efforts in muzzleloaders which he also has a good understand of. Basically hes succeeding because hes better than everyone else at this particular thing.

Dartwick said:

Basically hes succeeding because hes better than everyone else at this particular thing.

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Yep...and that's one of several reasons Kibler will continue to grab the "custom" crowd market. I continue to see older guns for sale so the sellers can use the money to buy a Kibler kit. They even admit it in their listings occasionally.

When you can sell a kit for $1200.00-$1300.00 that can be put together within a week.... you bypass the extra expense and the waiting time to get a dream gun built. We live in a "I want it now" world where buyers doesn't want to wait 9-12 months ( or more...and $800-$1000 higher in price ) to have a gun built when these kits will allow you to own one built by yourself in less than a month.
The ones I've seen in person and on the internet are outstanding looking guns. When Kibler expands to building smoothbore kits, he will probably never get caught up with the orders. That's good for all of us.

Is the bottom gonna fall out? I'm gonna say it could. As another thread pointed out, the average age of the people on this forum is 60's. If that average age doesn't get pushed down, I think it'll start to affect the market. Go away completely? No but definitely take a hit.

The bottom may fall out, but custom rifles are more popular than they ever have been, and it's not grumpy old codgers on SS buying them either. I'm 31; I have 6 custom rifles. My John Bergmann Caplock SMR is my most prized, most shot, and most hunted with.

I just saw pretty much this exact same topic posted on a Trad bows site.
Used stuff just isnt worth as much as people were believing it was, when the goverment was handing out money.

My wife joined me, in a totally different hobby, so we could spend time together. For some reason, I did a smart thing; I let her pick the aspect of the hobby she enjoyed and I supported that. Her tastes and thought processes are different from mine, but she found something she liked and grew quite a reputation with it. This was a hobby with a smaller percentage of females than muzzleloading. One guy offered her $300 to get his wife to like the hobby. Most men fail to grow the fun because we focus what we like, not what the other person might like. It's a lot like going to church; if you like it, you know why. But telling someone else to "go to church" falls flat until they are emotionally and intellectually engaged.

Custom made means being made to YOUR SPECIFICATIONS.

Custom is Not the same gun, kitchen table & staircase everyone else has.

The few customs ml rifles I have had built were done so for purposes of wanting quality, performance and reliability. Getting that can present issues. Try asking an artist to build a "plain" rifle.

One look at the latest parts prices seem to spell it out.