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Saturday, I received my copy of The Hawken Rifle, It’s Evolution from 1820 – 1870, by Bob Woodfill.

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Walaw717

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Saturday, I received my copy of The Hawken Rifle, It’s Evolution from 1820 – 1870, by Bob Woodfill. It is a beautiful book, well written and well laid out. It gave me pause for thought about the rifle I will assemble if it ever gets here from Italy.

I was trained and worked as an art historian for fifteen years, and I tend to think about history, art, and artifacts within their context. I was taught to see art as a social document, and I am beginning to see 18th and 19th -century muzzleloaders along those lines. As an art historian, I also know that myths grow around art and its place in history. The more deeply I research the History of the Mountain/plains rifles and the mountain men, the more apparent it becomes that the entire subject is clouded in myth and that historical facts warrant care in our conversations about these rifles. While I await my rifle kit, the research has posed a few questions for me.

Do I want to build a museum-quality replica, or do I want to develop a rifle in the style of a Hawken? If the former, then there will be a great deal I need to do to replace pieces of furniture and replicate the methods of staining, etc. On the other hand, building in the style of a Hawken allows me more freedom to create a new personal and unique piece. These are legitimate questions I mull over. Either way, I will never really build a Hawken; after all, my name is not Hawken. I also know that the Mountain/Plains rifle concept was not unique to the Hawken Brothers, and they created their guns from those they learned their craft upon before moving to St Louis. That is how we make progress. Despite what the “woke” say -everything, in the end, is cultural appropriation.

I know that I have no intention of being a historical re-enactor; I neither have the time nor the inclination to spend the money to create a historically accurate “kit” – clothes, etc. And I also know as a historian that such re-enactment requires hours, nay years of library research to accomplish. I spent far too much of my life in libraries and museums to want to do that again. Nor do I want to do some half-assed kind of re-enactment. Yeah, I love the period’s clothes, but that is not my purpose in doing this. I want to build a rifle and maybe a couple of pistols. I chose muzzle-loading because I have lived in a world of auto-loading modern weapons in my short time as a Deputy sheriff, and I know I never enjoyed modern gun culture – too much consumerism, too fast a pace, and too much narcissism.

In the end, I realized I wanted to create a work of art, a thing of beauty, and to do that requires I slow down and smell the wood, the metal, the stain, and the oils.

I do not want to purchase an original Hawken or Long rifle. Those are museum-quality, and I would never shoot it. I want something that I have invested time in and, in this case, follows a Hawken style – but I know it will never be a Hawken. My goal is to turn out a thing of beauty that is also a joy to use. I once had the pleasure of shooting a Holland and Holland over and under, and not only was it sweet to shoot, the care and handcraftsmanship that went into its manufacture made it feel like holding my first sweetheart in High school. It was a bit dizzying and awe-inspiring to feel the energy and warmth of hand craftsmanship.

Having said that. I have also spent a great deal of time reading online forums and watching what videos I can find. I noticed a pattern in the online media. One, in particular, struck me as it was about all the historical mistakes in the movie Jeremiah Johnson. I returned to the film over the weekend and have to say this. The movie is a narrative, a work of fiction that never gave the idea that it was 100 percent historically accurate. That was never its intention. It is a story that appeals to us because of the human quality – the friendships, the love, and the aspect of revenge in a man trying to escape the very thing he became, a violent man. After I rewatched the movie, I went back to the forum where the film was so soundly critiqued for its “inaccuracies” and realized there is a perfect 19th-century word to describe these critics. ‘Pettifoggers.” You know, as in petty meaning small-minded and foggers meaning one who creates something difficult to see through.

That these forums would be full of pettifoggers comes as no surprise, life is full of pettifoggers who can only find importance in tearing something or someone down.

I watched a video by Ethan of “I love muzzleloading.” He talked about the number one obstacle to the growth of muzzleloading for the beginner. To summarize, he boiled it down to too many in the muzzleloading community being a jerk. I guess that is a concise 21st century way to say pettifogger, but somehow, I think pettifogger is much more elegant and descriptive. As I read through the Jeremiah Johnson forum, I found myself thinking, “Boy, who wants to deal with pettifoggers, i.e., jerks like that? What are they trying to prove?” But being old and contrary and hopefully not a pettifogger, I realized that we all need support and conversation and a kind exchange of ideas, so I reach out here in chat well, at least what a conversation is in a blog thread. I hope over time that as I begin the careful process of creating a half-stock Rocky Mountain rifle from a Hawken-style kit.

I look forward to user feedback, but not the jerkiness and pettifogging of what I have seen in many forums and even some threads here.

I can say that I have had a 99.9 percent positive interaction with respondents in my previous posts. I am happy about that. I hope to create some cross-country friendships with men of shared interests and values and get good feedback and advice as I go forward with this project. I have enjoyed seeing several good gunsmithing and finishing videos on YouTube and have found many ideas to ponder moving forward.

Now I wish the darn kit would get here. I am ready to embrace it like a man embraces a lovely woman once he is past the foolishness of adolescence.

Again, this is offered in the spirit of a bunch of old fogies sitting around and having coffee and maybe a platter of bacon and eggs while they share their life experiences.

No arguments and no pettifogging. After three years of the nonsense of legacy corporate media, the govt, and public health, I am ready for some kindness and normalcy. The idiots only win if you become like them.
 
It’s interesting that you find a book based on real research attractive, yet find discussion of historical inaccuracies tiresome, annoying, and arrogant, based on your post above.
It seems you find it inoffensive to denigrate others who you’ve labeled as pettifoggers, while finding them offensive. Or perhaps I’ve read what you wrote all wrong.
 
Interestingly, based on your post above, you find a book based on real research attractive yet find discussion of historical inaccuracies tiresome, annoying, and arrogant.
It seems you find it inoffensive to denigrate others who you’ve labeled as pettifoggers while finding them offensive. Or perhaps I’ve read what you wrote all wrong.
Re-read what I said, Rick; I do not find informed discussion an issue; I find "pettifogging" narcissism that misses the point annoying. Historical research and presenting a case appropriately is not a problem. Still, as in the example I gave - missing the entire point of Jeremiah Johnson and measuring by a standard that is irrelevant to prove how smart one thinks one is quite annoying.
 
In building a muzzle loading rifle or pistol, I choose a particular style for my interpretation. I do not create a museum quality firearm, rather one that I can shoot and enjoy. I have done several different styles, whatever suits me at the time. I don't try to abuse these rifles, but I don't purposely try to ruin them, in the name of antiquing them.
I just finished my interpretation of a Hawken style rifle. I blended older style with newer style because that's what I chose. There are minor mistakes but I built this rifle for teaching women the joy of firing a muzzle loading rifle. Their smiles when they hit the intended target is the best feedback to me.
I have been a part of a colonial living history group. I have also been on a civil war skirmish team in proper uniform. All for the enjoyment of the sight and smell of burning black powder.
 
"I watched a video by Ethan of “I love muzzleloading.” He talked about the number one obstacle to the growth of muzzleloading for the beginner. To summarize, he boiled it down to too many in the muzzleloading community being a jerk."

When I started learning about muzzle loading I went to the library and checked out books. That is where I learned, there was no www.

Folks can still do that by getting Ned Roberts book, Eric Bye's book, Walter Cline's book, etc. These author's are well respected in their fields. Unfortunately folks come here wanting instant gratification, they do not want to put forth the effort to learn.

I see it all the time here, folks ask where can I buy this or that, how do I do this, etc. They want someone else to tell them versus putting forth the effort themselves to solve their problems.

Jeremiah Johnson was an entertainment movie, not a documentary, accept it for what it was made for.
 
Will, best wishes on your kit. I hope it turns out great! We’ll be anxious to see pics. I too am a fan of the Hawken rifle, the Hawken brothers, and the role that the rifle played in our country’s westward expansion. And I love the movie Jeremiah Johnson…just watched it again the other night. I don’t care at all about any inaccuracies in the film. It’s a great movie about the hardships of life in the Rockies. And I’ll bet Thompson Center loved the movie, which made the Hawken rifle very popular after the movie came out. I remember when I was a kid in the 1980s my dad had a TC Hawken .50 flintlock. I asked him once why he used what I called an “old looking gun.” And his answer was… “that’s what Jeremiah Johnson carried.”
Although in the movie JJ carried a percussion. Here in PA most of us own flintlocks due to the season after Christmas being flintlock only. Anyway, again best wishes on your Hawken!
 
I am now looking forward to the start of your rifle and hope you will share pictures along the way. I’m curious to see what your vision becomes.

Whenever I hear folks talk about Hawken rifles, I think about when I acquired my Thompson Center Hawken several years ago. At the time, I thought it was what real Hawken rifles looked like. But as everyone on here probably knows, a Thompson Center Hawken is only somewhat close to a real one. But that doesn’t really matter to me, I like it anyway.

I have thought about building a “Kentucky” rifle, although I probably never will since I do good to sharpen a pencil. However, if I did it would not be a recreation of any particular rifle but would have features of different rifles that I like all rolled into one.
 
I feel that what floats your boat is all that matters, if one finds satisfaction in any endeavor, in the 21st century, and some relaxation,pride in going it your way a hearty here here for you and me. I am hunter MT just give us a small widow of opportunity to extend my time trekking around the mountains, and a friend give me a great deal to get back into BP it was meant to be. I don't over think anything anymore, the last 4 plus years in the medical field. Has changed our life's forever. Enjoy smell the smoke, look at a sky so bright it hurts your eyes,get the pride of hitting your mark, take with you what makes you Happy! The dear lord made the earth round so we couldn't see to far ahead, he knew we wanted want to go there.


Mtman725
 
In building a muzzle loading rifle or pistol, I choose a particular style for my interpretation. I do not create a museum quality firearm, rather one that I can shoot and enjoy. I have done several different styles, whatever suits me at the time. I don't try to abuse these rifles, but I don't purposely try to ruin them, in the name of antiquing them.
I just finished my interpretation of a Hawken style rifle. I blended older style with newer style because that's what I chose. There are minor mistakes but I built this rifle for teaching women the joy of firing a muzzle loading rifle. Their smiles when they hit the intended target is the best feedback to me.
I have been a part of a colonial living history group. I have also been on a civil war skirmish team in proper uniform. All for the enjoyment of the sight and smell of burning black powder.

Sounds like you and I agree.
 
"I watched a video by Ethan of “I love muzzleloading.” He talked about the number one obstacle to the growth of muzzleloading for the beginner. To summarize, he boiled it down to too many in the muzzleloading community being a jerk."

When I started learning about muzzle loading I went to the library and checked out books. That is where I learned, there was no www.

Folks can still do that by getting Ned Roberts book, Eric Bye's book, Walter Cline's book, etc. These author's are well respected in their fields. Unfortunately folks come here wanting instant gratification, they do not want to put forth the effort to learn.

I see it all the time here, folks ask where can I buy this or that, how do I do this, etc. They want someone else to tell them versus putting forth the effort themselves to solve their problems.

Jeremiah Johnson was an entertainment movie, not a documentary, accept it for what it was made for.

Yep
 
Will, best wishes on your kit. I hope it turns out great! We’ll be anxious to see pics. I too am a fan of the Hawken rifle, the Hawken brothers, and the role that the rifle played in our country’s westward expansion. And I love the movie Jeremiah Johnson…just watched it again the other night. I don’t care at all about any inaccuracies in the film. It’s a great movie about the hardships of life in the Rockies. And I’ll bet Thompson Center loved the movie, which made the Hawken rifle very popular after the movie came out. I remember when I was a kid in the 1980s my dad had a TC Hawken .50 flintlock. I asked him once why he used what I called an “old looking gun.” And his answer was… “that’s what Jeremiah Johnson carried.”
Although in the movie JJ carried a percussion. Here in PA most of us own flintlocks due to the season after Christmas being flintlock only. Anyway, again best wishes on your Hawken!
Thanks, curious as to flintlock only. Rate of fire can't be that different. Waiting has made me slow down and be very thoughtful about what I am doing.
 
I am now looking forward to the start of your rifle and hope you will share pictures along the way. I’m curious to see what your vision becomes.

Whenever I hear folks talk about Hawken rifles, I think about when I acquired my Thompson Center Hawken several years ago. At the time, I thought it was what real Hawken rifles looked like. But as everyone on here probably knows, a Thompson Center Hawken is only somewhat close to a real one. But that doesn’t really matter to me, I like it anyway.

I have thought about building a “Kentucky” rifle, although I probably never will since I do good to sharpen a pencil. However, if I did it would not be a recreation of any particular rifle but would have features of different rifles that I like all rolled into one.
Thanks Banjoman. I bet you would still create a great rifle.
 
I feel that what floats your boat is all that matters, if one finds satisfaction in any endeavor, in the 21st century, and some relaxation,pride in going it your way a hearty here here for you and me. I am hunter MT just give us a small widow of opportunity to extend my time trekking around the mountains, and a friend give me a great deal to get back into BP it was meant to be. I don't over think anything anymore, the last 4 plus years in the medical field. Has changed our life's forever. Enjoy smell the smoke, look at a sky so bright it hurts your eyes,get the pride of hitting your mark, take with you what makes you Happy! The dear lord made the earth round so we couldn't see to far ahead, he knew we wanted want to go there.


Mtman725
Yes I work in medical field now. All is crazy and having an escape to a different place is a good way to float a boat.
 
Thanks for the word "pettifogger". When I was small and learning to read I had a little trouble. My Mom made me sit on the floor while she made dinner and read to her. That and going to a Catholic School with the nuns gave me a passion for words and reading. I always have 2 or 3 books going at once, mostly historical stuff. My wife, a High School teacher for almost 40 years, says I never use simple phrases if I can stick a big word in there.
I am a shooter, I have no unfired firearms. I enjoy the use of them. I appreciate an original but the few that I have had over the years get sold eventually. My favorite style is a Hawken/plains style, just my preference and have a percussion [GRRW kit] and a flintlock full stock. Not really concerned about absolute historic accuracy.
The next build for me will be a Hawken. Not sure of what kit it will be, probably Hawken Shop or something US made. It will be shot. My intention is to give them to my grandsons after I am gone and that the rifles be worn out.

Don
 
Thanks, curious as to flintlock only. Rate of fire can't be that different. Waiting has made me slow down and be very thoughtful about what I am doing.

For as long as I can remember, Pennsylvania has a flintlock only season after Christmas. It lasts about 3 weeks. No other firearm is permitted, not even a percussion. I guess they’re just trying to keep it as primitive as possible.
 
Saturday, I received my copy of The Hawken Rifle, It’s Evolution from 1820 – 1870, by Bob Woodfill. It is a beautiful book, well written and well laid out. It gave me pause for thought about the rifle I will assemble if it ever gets here from Italy.

I was trained and worked as an art historian for fifteen years, and I tend to think about history, art, and artifacts within their context. I was taught to see art as a social document, and I am beginning to see 18th and 19th -century muzzleloaders along those lines. As an art historian, I also know that myths grow around art and its place in history. The more deeply I research the History of the Mountain/plains rifles and the mountain men, the more apparent it becomes that the entire subject is clouded in myth and that historical facts warrant care in our conversations about these rifles. While I await my rifle kit, the research has posed a few questions for me.

Do I want to build a museum-quality replica, or do I want to develop a rifle in the style of a Hawken? If the former, then there will be a great deal I need to do to replace pieces of furniture and replicate the methods of staining, etc. On the other hand, building in the style of a Hawken allows me more freedom to create a new personal and unique piece. These are legitimate questions I mull over. Either way, I will never really build a Hawken; after all, my name is not Hawken. I also know that the Mountain/Plains rifle concept was not unique to the Hawken Brothers, and they created their guns from those they learned their craft upon before moving to St Louis. That is how we make progress. Despite what the “woke” say -everything, in the end, is cultural appropriation.

I know that I have no intention of being a historical re-enactor; I neither have the time nor the inclination to spend the money to create a historically accurate “kit” – clothes, etc. And I also know as a historian that such re-enactment requires hours, nay years of library research to accomplish. I spent far too much of my life in libraries and museums to want to do that again. Nor do I want to do some half-assed kind of re-enactment. Yeah, I love the period’s clothes, but that is not my purpose in doing this. I want to build a rifle and maybe a couple of pistols. I chose muzzle-loading because I have lived in a world of auto-loading modern weapons in my short time as a Deputy sheriff, and I know I never enjoyed modern gun culture – too much consumerism, too fast a pace, and too much narcissism.

In the end, I realized I wanted to create a work of art, a thing of beauty, and to do that requires I slow down and smell the wood, the metal, the stain, and the oils.

I do not want to purchase an original Hawken or Long rifle. Those are museum-quality, and I would never shoot it. I want something that I have invested time in and, in this case, follows a Hawken style – but I know it will never be a Hawken. My goal is to turn out a thing of beauty that is also a joy to use. I once had the pleasure of shooting a Holland and Holland over and under, and not only was it sweet to shoot, the care and handcraftsmanship that went into its manufacture made it feel like holding my first sweetheart in High school. It was a bit dizzying and awe-inspiring to feel the energy and warmth of hand craftsmanship.

Having said that. I have also spent a great deal of time reading online forums and watching what videos I can find. I noticed a pattern in the online media. One, in particular, struck me as it was about all the historical mistakes in the movie Jeremiah Johnson. I returned to the film over the weekend and have to say this. The movie is a narrative, a work of fiction that never gave the idea that it was 100 percent historically accurate. That was never its intention. It is a story that appeals to us because of the human quality – the friendships, the love, and the aspect of revenge in a man trying to escape the very thing he became, a violent man. After I rewatched the movie, I went back to the forum where the film was so soundly critiqued for its “inaccuracies” and realized there is a perfect 19th-century word to describe these critics. ‘Pettifoggers.” You know, as in petty meaning small-minded and foggers meaning one who creates something difficult to see through.

That these forums would be full of pettifoggers comes as no surprise, life is full of pettifoggers who can only find importance in tearing something or someone down.

I watched a video by Ethan of “I love muzzleloading.” He talked about the number one obstacle to the growth of muzzleloading for the beginner. To summarize, he boiled it down to too many in the muzzleloading community being a jerk. I guess that is a concise 21st century way to say pettifogger, but somehow, I think pettifogger is much more elegant and descriptive. As I read through the Jeremiah Johnson forum, I found myself thinking, “Boy, who wants to deal with pettifoggers, i.e., jerks like that? What are they trying to prove?” But being old and contrary and hopefully not a pettifogger, I realized that we all need support and conversation and a kind exchange of ideas, so I reach out here in chat well, at least what a conversation is in a blog thread. I hope over time that as I begin the careful process of creating a half-stock Rocky Mountain rifle from a Hawken-style kit.

I look forward to user feedback, but not the jerkiness and pettifogging of what I have seen in many forums and even some threads here.

I can say that I have had a 99.9 percent positive interaction with respondents in my previous posts. I am happy about that. I hope to create some cross-country friendships with men of shared interests and values and get good feedback and advice as I go forward with this project. I have enjoyed seeing several good gunsmithing and finishing videos on YouTube and have found many ideas to ponder moving forward.

Now I wish the darn kit would get here. I am ready to embrace it like a man embraces a lovely woman once he is past the foolishness of adolescence.

Again, this is offered in the spirit of a bunch of old fogies sitting around and having coffee and maybe a platter of bacon and eggs while they share their life experiences.

No arguments and no pettifogging. After three years of the nonsense of legacy corporate media, the govt, and public health, I am ready for some kindness and normalcy. The idiots only win if you become like them.
I just now read your post…well said with class. I am wanting to affirm your observations concerning your experience with forums and muzzleloader affecionados of all manner…more “pettifoggers” per square foot in muzzleloading than in the other shooting sports...(and there are a lot elsewhere).
I say let the pettyfoggers, pettyfog…
 
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