Jacob Dickert Style Fur Trade Era Build

[DennyDucet]

Hello there community, as a newbie here I humbly value the input and opinion of the more informed and experienced members of the forum here.

Recently I sold 4 other firearms (centerfire) in order to fund a custom rifle built by a renowned flintlock builder. He will likely be ordering the parts with some of my input at sometime in the future and I wanted to get some buy in here on the parts as well as some historical accuracy confirmation.

The overall rifle will be a reflection of those that were made by Jacob Dickert and his company as it spanned quite a large part of American Flintlock History. I live in Montana and hope for this rifle to fit somewhere in the early Fur Trade era, perhaps when the Canadians and Hudson Bay or even the earliest American Traders were working in this region. I have seen the Dickert Rifle that is the last surviving rifle of the Alamo, and seen photos of Dickert Rifles featured in the Museum of the Fur Trade. I have been informed that many of the high end Fur Trade rifles were ordered with "water proof" pans in the lock. The main part of my question will be regarding the LOCK. Here is the build so far:

-42"x.50 cal Swamped Colerain Barrel (B weight)
-Jacob Dickert Brass kit including Patch box from Track of the Wolf
-Grade 5-6 Curly Sugar Maple Stock blank already procured
-Lock either a Late Ketland/English from RE Davis or the Classic Ketland from Jim Chambers. I want the best lock for this rifle.

Which lock would you recommend and would be most accurate as a Lancaster rifle that found its way west during the 1810-1840 periods?

I thank you guys for helping me through this.

 

[Cruzatte]

Personally speaking, I like the looks of the lock in the lower photo. I just never cared for the chopped off look of the lock in the upper photo. My personal opinion only and that and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee.

 

[DennyDucet]

I feel the same way. Aesthetically the Chambers Classic Ketland looks better.

 

[azmntman]

I like the top one cuz it is not as shiny myself

 

[DennyDucet]

This is merely how the locks come to the gunsmith. He will polish and either brown them or polish into the white, depending on what is decided. I will go with his opinion on that.

 

[excess650]

The upper lock is similar to that seen on some Leman trade rifles. It has the full waterproof pan.

I have held an original Melchior Fordney rifle with full waterproof pan shaped similarly to the Chambers late Ketland. Fordney was still building flint until his death in 1846! Henry Leman apprenticed under Fordney.

Jacob Dickert was a relatively early Lancaster 'smith, and died in 1822. Appropriate Dickert rifles would be F&I War period/Pre Rev War, Rev War/Federal Period, and Golden Age.

L&R's late English and Manton locks both feature full waterproof pans. The Durs Egg is semi-waterproof like a Chambers late Ketland.

 

[DennyDucet]

Thank you for the input. Supposedly this is the only rifle to survive the Alamo and it was a Dickert rifle with a Ketland Lock

I am leaning towards this lock here.

 

[excess650]

Chambers late Ketland, L&R Manton/Bailes, and L&R Durs Egg are kinda similar in appearance. All have the roller frizzen and at least semi-waterproof pan. The Manton/Bailes is a little smaller, and has the full waterproof pan.

The rifle pictured is interesting. Wood has been added at the tail of the lock. While the barrel has a Dickert signature, the lack of carving and shape of the buttstock has me thinking it was restocked by someone else.

 

[DennyDucet]

I saw that wood added also. I wonder if as the rifle was handed down and work was done, things like a new or improved lock were added and the stock thus re-shaped to accommodate. I appreciate all the input from each of you. What would the consensus be then on perhaps the Chambers Late English Lock ? Keep the input coming. Thanks.

Check out the what looks to be an Early Wetland on this Dickert rifle that went to auction: Look it up at Rock island auction

 

[dave_person]

Hi Denny,
I would go with the Chambers lock without question. It is one of the fastest on the market and is better made than Davis and L&R locks. The only disadvantage to the Chambers lock is Jim doesn't use a stirrup link between the tumbler and mainspring like most late English locks. However, unlike the other makers, his springs are tapered properly to give the right "whippy" feel and do not require much tuning. The other makers locks require more work to get right.

dave

 

[excess650]

The "Alamo Dickert" looks to have been restocked by a Berks County 'smith, judging by the curvature of the toe and comb. The lock looks small in that large lock panel, so appears out of place. I've seen some other pictures of that rifle, so not judging by one photo.

Another "Dickert" in a Lancaster book shows an odd patchbox and stock combination, single bolt lock, and proclaims it "pre-Rev Dickert". NOT! Obviously it was a Dickert signature barreled re-purposed after percussion locks had come into common use, so after Dickert was deceased.

The Chambers late Ketland is an excellent lock, and I would have no qualms about using it. Most of my locks are Chambers. If you want a "full waterproof pan", you'll have to choose another.

ANY Dickert rifle made prior to the time period you're looking to be period correct for would be fine.

 

[scotsman]

Hey Denny, Have you thought about a Jim Chambers Early Germanic lock or a Chambers Golden Age? Periodwise these could work for you. cheers

 

[Pete G]

I would not build a Dickert with either of those locks. All the Dickert photos that I have seen show that he used Germanic styled locks, such as the Siler or maybe Chambers' Golden Age. Another good choice for a Dickert would be the Chambers' "Dale Johnson".

 

[DennyDucet]

There are some amazing re-creations here http://libertylongrifles.com/galleries-of-guns/re-creations-of-classic-originals/ and this one is perhaps my favorite of them. Several feature roller bearing frizzens in Late English/Ketland locks, others the Siler and Golden age appearing locks. This look is my favorite:

 

[Vaino]

I agree w/ your remarks...Germanic locks. I particularly like the Chambers Dale Johnson because of it's slightly curved under side of the lock plate which can denote "early". The "tail" of the lockplate also lines up w/ the wrist quite well. Whether it be a Dickert or other Lancaster builder., the Dale Johnson is all I use. Shown below is an Isaac Haines w/ a Dale Johnson.....Fred

 

[Docgp]

There are some amazing re-creations here http://libertylongrifles.com/galleries-of-guns/re-creations-of-classic-originals/ and this one is perhaps my favorite of them. Several feature roller bearing frizzens in Late English/Ketland locks, others the Siler and Golden age appearing locks. This look is my favorite:

MAN, I like that !!

Doc

 

[DennyDucet]

Whew! I have been reading, and researching non-stop when I have down time, to find the right lock for this gun. I do like the Dale Johnson, Golden Age and Deluxe Siler all from Chambers. I will likely go Chambers as I continue to only here raving reviews regarding their quality as well as hear it from some master builders themselves, particularly the man building my rifle when he gets to it (he is 4 deep).

The English Lock, if I go that way will be the Chambers classic/late Ketland. If I chose Germanic it will be the Deluxe Siler I feel.

After reading and searching museum photos and displays, I find it appropriate that a rifle could have been built by Mr. Dickert featuring a Siler style Germanic Lock around 1790ish-1800 and have found its way through, hook, crook or sale to the Western frontier and into the Fur trade era. Is this too far fetched? Several Dickert marked rifles are in the Museum of the Fur Trade. I believe I saw one in the inventory of a Museum in WY as well.

Thanks for the continued help. If any of you make it up to Montana this summer there is a Rendezvous July 16th near LIBBY MT. Pass it along. Bring your rifles.

 

[SgtErv]

You will not be dissatisfied with the Deluxe Siler. That lock is awesome. It's not finicky with the prime, and is highly reliable in every respect. It gave me a whole new perspective on flintlock shooting

 

[DennyDucet]

That is consistent with the assessments of others. I have total confidence in the Deluxe Siler - the question is, would it have been found west of the Mississippi in the Dakotas and Montana circa 1805-1830?

 

[SgtErv]

The general rule of thumb for historical reproduction, impressions is that earlier is a safe bet. I've got that lock on a 1770s Isaac Haines, and it is featured on Golden Age rifles. Firearms being what they are, both expensive and long lasting, it would be likely. (Probably more likely than a brand new one, in my opinion).

Some folks more expert than I will chime in on this one.