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olskool said:
well I will say it again! "read slow please" "I did not know, until the gun was half way done, that it had a problem" if I had called them then do you think they would have said "sure, send it back for another"? no and if you are a rifle builder you wouldn't either! and neither would I because it was to late in the game! it should have never been SENT OUT LIKE THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Click to expand...
Please read slowly, years ago bought a precarved blank that was done using a pocket knife? It was not done straight because their equipment was outdated, dull drill bit, light was bad, who knows. So when received the precarved blank, was never inspected to determine if the barrel or ramrod channel was carved straight, lock inlet on the correct side or for correct lock etc. Or was there a failure to just turn the blank over to check the ramrod channel? Let the buyer beware, they have a responsibility to turn the blank over and inspect it.

Have a quick oil change company fail to put the required # of quarts of oil in the car and you replace the oil, you have no claim because the oil change place could not verify their failure. Son's personal experience with a burned up motor with no oil in it. No recourse but pay for a $2.5k motor.
 
to bad about the motor! but, you get what you pay for, or suppose to! in your case with the motor, well it was a cheep oil change place with kids making minimum wage. I paid enough for that kit all the predrilled holes should have been straight! when I do a transmission, I charge plenty! people know it up front and they expect it to work when they drive off. if they had a back yard man do it then they shouldn't complain if it don't work so good. same way with everything.
 
I hear what you're saying. They probably don't have a system in place like an auto shop has. We were a transmission shop and wouldn't have thought of sending a job out without a test drive. Only trouble we had was when we did a bench job and someone else installed it. Would usually mean a trip over to hook up the T.V. cable and set it the right way or some such thing. Still, unless the shop did something stupid and burned up the unit, we were glad to just go over and educate the shop. If they started out by posting you up as a bad guy, you probably wouldn't like that. Just saying. Anyways, that'sjust my .02 centavos.
olskool said:
well I will say it again! "read slow please" "I did not know, until the gun was half way done, that it had a problem" if I had called them then do you think they would have said "sure, send it back for another"? no and if you are a rifle builder you wouldn't either! and neither would I because it was to late in the game! it should have never been SENT OUT LIKE THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Click to expand...
 
I find it strange that a stock bought from TVM would have problems with their "ramrod hole or slot".
TVM does not drill a deep hole in their stocks for a ramrod.
Instead, they drill a hole for the entry of the rod about 3 inches deep. They then, set the stock up in a mill and mill a slot down thru the bottom flat of the barrel channel, from the entry hole down towards the breech end of the barrel channel.

Using this method, I think it is unlikely that the ramrod slot could be offset from the barrel channel. It sounds more like the builder messed up and took too much wood off of one side of the forend.

Speaking of the ramrod "hole", this method that TVM uses is the only thing I can criticize about their work. IMO, it removes too much of the wood in the forend. Because of that when I have used a TVM stock blank to build a gun with I cut a thin strip of wood and with a ramrod in place to prevent the strip from going too far down into the slot, I glue the strip into the slot.

Anyway, getting back to the original problem, I'm surprised we haven't heard about "the fixing of the lock" yet.
I'm waiting with bated breath.
 
I've dealt with a number of builders in the past including TVM. I can say that my experiences with all of them were excellent. No complaints from me about any of them.
 
Zonie said:
I find it strange that a stock bought from TVM would have problems with their "ramrod hole or slot".
TVM does not drill a deep hole in their stocks for a ramrod.
Instead, they drill a hole for the entry of the rod about 3 inches deep. They then, set the stock up in a mill and mill a slot down thru the bottom flat of the barrel channel, from the entry hole down towards the breech end of the barrel channel.

Using this method, I think it is unlikely that the ramrod slot could be offset from the barrel channel. It sounds more like the builder messed up and took too much wood off of one side of the forend.

Speaking of the ramrod "hole", this method that TVM uses is the only thing I can criticize about their work. IMO, it removes too much of the wood in the forend. Because of that when I have used a TVM stock blank to build a gun with I cut a thin strip of wood and with a ramrod in place to prevent the strip from going too far down into the slot, I glue the strip into the slot.

Anyway, getting back to the original problem, I'm surprised we haven't heard about "the fixing of the lock" yet.
I'm waiting with bated breath.
Click to expand...

the very first post when this thread got started he said his gun had the wrong riffling, he said the inletting on the side plate was "amateurish" these are major problems compared to a entry hole drilled wrong. so if he had problems like that then I think a hole drilled wrong would be easy to do. and yes it was drilled wrong, not a mistake of the man sanding the wood.
 
jdw276 said:
Have a quick oil change company fail to put the required # of quarts of oil in the car and you replace the oil, you have no claim because the oil change place could not verify their failure. Son's personal experience with a burned up motor with no oil in it. No recourse but pay for a $2.5k motor.
Click to expand...

Walmart did that to me on a new motor with 6K on it. (drove it into the parking lot for me to take with no oil being replaced after draining) Zero satisfaction from them or lawyer I contacted to get relief. I ended up eating the replacement.

Learned a good lesson have a garage you can trust and never mind the quickie places. All cannot be done internet fast.
 
olskool said:
the very first post when this thread got started he said his gun had the wrong riffling, he said the inletting on the side plate was "amateurish" these are major problems compared to a entry hole drilled wrong. so if he had problems like that then I think a hole drilled wrong would be easy to do. and yes it was drilled wrong, not a mistake of the man sanding the wood.
Click to expand...
Barrel issue, yep, inlet subject to interpretation. What i would consider great inletting by my personal capabilities and standards, many here would claim a butcher did it with a meat cleaver. Dont recall pics of the claimed poor inletting that "i can live with". Inletting must not have been that bad if "can live with it."

Again, no leg to stand on. If the product is not inspected upon receipt, it cannot be determined who is responsible for the ramrod pipe off center. The wood butcher or the wood carver? Take em to court and you will get the same answer and thrown out.

Getting pretty tired of this thread and the opinions contained in it. I bet the OP has his answer already and has not shared to let the opinions ferment. He gets on this forum early every morning.
 
Hi,
Over the last 5 years I've repaired and fixed problems on TVMs. Olskool's description is very plausible because on 2 of the those guns the routed ramrod channel was angled off center. In both cases it did not really matter very much since there was plenty of extra wood left on the stocks. However, it would be a problem if the stocks were pared down as originals were. Other problems I've run into are poorly fitted triggers, muzzle caps, and rear ramrod thimbles, locks performing poorly, and breaks at the wrist owing to grain run out. The problems with the locks appeared to to be because they were installed on the guns with no real polishing or tuning. In all cases the guns were not kits. The guns came in because of problems like a broken wrist, or severely rattling trigger and bad trigger creep, or the lock doesn't work well. Anyway, the owners were all oblivious to other issues like a misaligned muzzle cap, a poorly inlet rear thimble tang, or ramrods hanging almost 3/16" below the muzzle cap. That is until I pointed out the flaws to them and asked if they wanted me to fix them. Then they get kind of "disappointed" but in most cases they bought the guns really cheap second-hand and so are "philosophical". I always fix the additional problems for them at no charge.

dave
 
dave_person said:
Hi,
Over the last 5 years I've repaired and fixed problems on TVMs. Olskool's description is very plausible because on 2 of the those guns the routed ramrod channel was angled off center. In both cases it did not really matter very much since there was plenty of extra wood left on the stocks. However, it would be a problem if the stocks were pared down as originals were. Other problems I've run into are poorly fitted triggers, muzzle caps, and rear ramrod thimbles, locks performing poorly, and breaks at the wrist owing to grain run out. The problems with the locks appeared to to be because they were installed on the guns with no real polishing or tuning. In all cases the guns were not kits. The guns came in because of problems like a broken wrist, or severely rattling trigger and bad trigger creep, or the lock doesn't work well. Anyway, the owners were all oblivious to other issues like a misaligned muzzle cap, a poorly inlet rear thimble tang, or ramrods hanging almost 3/16" below the muzzle cap. That is until I pointed out the flaws to them and asked if they wanted me to fix them. Then they get kind of "disappointed" but in most cases they bought the guns really cheap second-hand and so are "philosophical". I always fix the additional problems for them at no charge.

dave
Click to expand...
The muzzle cap thing must be common with them. To my eye it is the thing that is wrong on mine that stands out the most.

Didn't know the ramrod being so far below the muzzle cap could be fixed. Figured a thick web between barrel channel and ramrod channel on a finished rifle would be a done deal.

JDW276, I'm with you on being kinda tired of this thread, especially with so many people not directly involved throwing stones around, yet, I keep opening it.
This time I'm glad I did, thanks Dave.
 
dave_person said:
Hi,
Over the last 5 years I've repaired and fixed problems on TVMs. Olskool's description is very plausible because on 2 of the those guns the routed ramrod channel was angled off center. In both cases it did not really matter very much since there was plenty of extra wood left on the stocks. However, it would be a problem if the stocks were pared down as originals were. Other problems I've run into are poorly fitted triggers, muzzle caps, and rear ramrod thimbles, locks performing poorly, and breaks at the wrist owing to grain run out. The problems with the locks appeared to to be because they were installed on the guns with no real polishing or tuning. In all cases the guns were not kits. The guns came in because of problems like a broken wrist, or severely rattling trigger and bad trigger creep, or the lock doesn't work well. Anyway, the owners were all oblivious to other issues like a misaligned muzzle cap, a poorly inlet rear thimble tang, or ramrods hanging almost 3/16" below the muzzle cap. That is until I pointed out the flaws to them and asked if they wanted me to fix them. Then they get kind of "disappointed" but in most cases they bought the guns really cheap second-hand and so are "philosophical". I always fix the additional problems for them at no charge.

dave
Click to expand...
thank you Dave for confirming what I said. mine was so bad anyone would notice it. I just never looked at it close. my buddy that worked on the wood is a type of man that just keeps quiet and never complains. about half way through sanding and working on the wood I asked how it was going and then he told me, it was just to late to turn back. when it was finished the entry pipe was just lopsided and turned at an angel to meet the wood. if he had put it straight there would have been a gap. he just made it fit to follow the offset hole,,,,,,,,,,,,
 
dave_person said:
Hi,
Over the last 5 years I've repaired and fixed problems on TVMs. Olskool's description is very plausible because on 2 of the those guns the routed ramrod channel was angled off center. In both cases it did not really matter very much since there was plenty of extra wood left on the stocks. However, it would be a problem if the stocks were pared down as originals were. Other problems I've run into are poorly fitted triggers, muzzle caps, and rear ramrod thimbles, locks performing poorly, and breaks at the wrist owing to grain run out. The problems with the locks appeared to to be because they were installed on the guns with no real polishing or tuning. In all cases the guns were not kits. The guns came in because of problems like a broken wrist, or severely rattling trigger and bad trigger creep, or the lock doesn't work well. Anyway, the owners were all oblivious to other issues like a misaligned muzzle cap, a poorly inlet rear thimble tang, or ramrods hanging almost 3/16" below the muzzle cap. That is until I pointed out the flaws to them and asked if they wanted me to fix them. Then they get kind of "disappointed" but in most cases they bought the guns really cheap second-hand and so are "philosophical". I always fix the additional problems for them at no charge.

dave
Click to expand...
There is not a gun out there, none, that someone cant find something wrong with. NONE, i would challenge anyone to find a perfect gun because the next person will find a flaw on it somewhere. It is what the buyer accepts as acceptable flaws otherwise known as part of the character of the gun.

None, i dont care who built it. None. Ask a builder of any gun they make and they will find the flaw in their own work. What is a flaw, something that could be done better the next time around. Let alone give a builder a gun they did not make and ask them what they would have done differently. Every word is a flaw that comes out of their mouth is a flaw in the build. That is why builders dont critize other builders work for the most part. They know they are not perfect either.
 
While there might not be a gun without a flaw, some flaws are more serious then others. Some are not very forgivable when you hold yourself out there as an expert or craftsman.

We all make mistakes, no doubt about it. It is how you deal with those mistakes and how often you make the same mistakes that will set you apart either as a positive or a negative.

Fleener
 
Brokennock said:
The muzzle cap thing must be common with them. To my eye it is the thing that is wrong on mine that stands out the most.

Didn't know the ramrod being so far below the muzzle cap could be fixed. Figured a thick web between barrel channel and ramrod channel on a finished rifle would be a done deal.

JDW276, I'm with you on being kinda tired of this thread, especially with so many people not directly involved throwing stones around, yet, I keep opening it.
This time I'm glad I did, thanks Dave.
Click to expand...
Hi Brokenock,
I usually don't fix the ramrod position because that is a pretty big job. However, I did on one and it came out well. I removed the forward ramrod pipes and filled the pin holes. Then I deepened the ramrod channel toward the muzzle, which brought the rod up close to the muzzle cap. I filed the ramrod groove sides so they were again even with the rod and inlet the pipes. Of course I had to refinish the forestock but that was no big deal. It came out really well and slimmed the lines of the gun immensely. In addition, it created a slight arc in the groove and hole, which served to put a little tension on the rod holding it in place better when shooting. His muzzle cap was like the one Gene posted on this thread with the side walls left higher than the wood fore stock rather than filed down flush (a job that takes about 10 minutes). He also had an old Thompson Center Hawken that would not hold at half or full cock. The boss and coil spring for the sear had rusted and once compressed stayed that way. He had bought both rifles recently second hand and remarked to me that he was glad to see that the nose cap on his TC was fitted flush and even. However, he failed to notice the daylight showing between the barrel rib and his ramrod.

dave
 
olskool said:
well I will say it again! "read slow please" "I did not know, until the gun was half way done, that it had a problem" if I had called them then do you think they would have said "sure, send it back for another"? no and if you are a rifle builder you wouldn't either! and neither would I because it was to late in the game! it should have never been SENT OUT LIKE THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Click to expand...
I find it interesting that you spent so much time working on the stock (two of you to boot) that you didn't even get the slightest hint that the ramrod hole was drilled wrong. If the mistake was that hidden would it have been visible to the manufacturer? Ramrod holes are tricky things to drill. Ramrod drills have a tendency to wander. Many times these wanderings can be worked around. When a kit is bought it is up to the buyer to fix these kind of things. When a finished gun is done by a builder it is up to the builder to take care of such challenges. Either way makes no difference who is navigating the building process. My guess is, if a call was made to the company they could give you options as to how to remedy the problem, or send them the stock and they could have worked this out for you, or maybe even replaced the stock. Of course stock replacement would mean doing all that work over. Or of course another option could be, that they told you to buzz off. It's too bad that you didn't get up with them as I am curious how they would have handled your problem.
 
boombyspark said:
I find it interesting that you spent so much time working on the stock (two of you to boot) that you didn't even get the slightest hint that the ramrod hole was drilled wrong. If the mistake was that hidden would it have been visible to the manufacturer? Ramrod holes are tricky things to drill. Ramrod drills have a tendency to wander. Many times these wanderings can be worked around. When a kit is bought it is up to the buyer to fix these kind of things. When a finished gun is done by a builder it is up to the builder to take care of such challenges. Either way makes no difference who is navigating the building process. My guess is, if a call was made to the company they could give you options as to how to remedy the problem, or send them the stock and they could have worked this out for you, or maybe even replaced the stock. Of course stock replacement would mean doing all that work over. Or of course another option could be, that they told you to buzz off. It's too bad that you didn't get up with them as I am curious how they would have handled your problem.
Click to expand...

man its amazing! I love all ya'll, but please read even slower. I, was, not, the, one, working, on, the, wood, my, friend was. I, did, not see, it, until, he, was, half, way done. I done all the metal.

anyway what is done is done. all I can tell you is from the look of the lopsided entry hole whoever drilled it did not inspect it before it left. it don't even line up right with the ramrod groove.or was either drinking, blind, or did not know what they were doing. anyway I wish I had called them, they probably would have done something, they seemed like nice folks,,,,,,,,,,
 
If the ramrod hole is drilled off center from milling inside the stock, would it be possible to glue in a strip of wood that one might have to hand file a half moon cut out in to correct the off center milling cut?

Gus
 
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