To much is made of short arbors

[45D]

An you are so enlightened you still believe an open frame gun as strong as a closed frame. Why that is shear brilliance on display !

Yap, again I've proven they are as strong as any that can handle +p 45cal ammo.
You should try it sometime and see if your wedge won't eat the revolver up.

Mike

 

[Snooterpup]

Well, your example doesn't work for the setup.
Using your example for my setup, the barrel would be the ball being sent ( since that's last in the chain). Since the barrel on my setup is held tight against the arbor (ball you're hitting), you would have to put your foot on the other ball. Now hitting the first ball won't do anything to the second ball ( held by you foot). The force is transferred directly and handled as a single unit. The wedge is just there to hold the assemblies together with tension. The force is transferred directly through the arbor to the barrel assembly ( equal harmonics). If there's space between the arbor and barrel it interrupts the force and the wedge becomes a referee between to fighters.

Mike

Mike:
That is an excellent example of why the Walker beats the donuts out if the wedge with heavy loads. A tool steel wedge will undoubtedly beat the donuts out of the arbor slot. 45D has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Colt’s original design can and will handle heavy loads. Correctly fixing an incorrect arbor/arbor well restores Colt’s design. Pietta has corrected it, Uberti needs too as well but the shim ‘fix’ can and will do the job.
You can drive for a while on a flat tire (wedge gauge) but it is prudent to put on the spare instead (arbor shim) for the long haul.
Grandpa could fix anything with enough bailing wire but replacing the broken bolt would have been the correct way.
Snoot’s opinion loosely base on fact,
others may disagree.

 

[French Colonial]

Mike:
That is an excellent example of why the Walker beats the donuts out if the wedge with heavy loads. A tool steel wedge will undoubtedly beat the donuts out of the arbor slot. 45D has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Colt’s original design can and will handle heavy loads. Correctly fixing an incorrect arbor/arbor well restores Colt’s design. Pietta has corrected it, Uberti needs too as well but the shim ‘fix’ can and will do the job.
You can drive for a while on a flat tire (wedge gauge) but it is prudent to put on the spare instead (arbor shim) for the long haul.
Grandpa could fix anything with enough bailing wire but replacing the broken bolt would have been the correct way.
Snoot’s opinion loosely base on fact,
others may disagree.

For the last time (I swear!)
On a short arbor gun, upon firing the cylinder pushes rearward against the action and the arbor being part of the action also pushes rearward while the barrel tries to go forward, the gap in front of the arbor has no effect because the wedge is doing the work.

On an arbor that is fitting EXACTLY, upon firing the arbor tries to go rearward and the barrel tries to go forward just as above and the WEDGE IS DOING ALL THE WORK, if the wedge is fitted correctly the arbor upon firing does not matter.


45D has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Colt’s original design can and will handle heavy loads.

What heavy loads does the original Colt design handle that the solid frame guns do not? Answer none.

 

[45D]

45D has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Colt’s original design can and will handle heavy loads.

What heavy loads does the original Colt design handle that the solid frame guns do not? Answer none.

Well, you'd be wrong.
According to Brian Pearce, who has probably been using pressure equipment decades longer than you, lists - Colt SAA, New Frontier, Great Western Arms Frontier, Pietta, Great Western II, Taurus Gaucho as well as others ( those are all Top Strap revolvers), NOT suitable for 45C +p loads which operate at 23K psi. Likewise, the 45acp +p's operate at 23K psi as well.

My 1860 Uberti Army ( an open-top platform) can handle both. So what don't you understand about this?
My Dragoons do it easily ( they're open-top platforms as well).

Mike

 

[64Springer]

12 pages.

A thread for the ages.

 

[45D]

12 pages.

A thread for the ages.

Nope, there's another one much longer.
It's 4 pages over and is twice as long as this one. I'm sure you're in it somewhere, but maybe not.
Mike

 

[Snooterpup]

For the last time (I swear!)
On a short arbor gun, upon firing the cylinder pushes rearward against the action and the arbor being part of the action also pushes rearward while the barrel tries to go forward, the gap in front of the arbor has no effect because the wedge is doing the work.

On an arbor that is fitting EXACTLY, upon firing the arbor tries to go rearward and the barrel tries to go forward just as above and the WEDGE IS DOING ALL THE WORK, if the wedge is fitted correctly the arbor upon firing does not matter.


45D has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Colt’s original design can and will handle heavy loads.

What heavy loads does the original Colt design handle that the solid frame guns do not? Answer none.

Sorry! I wasn’t being clear. I meant 50 grains (plus perhaps a few more) in a repro Walker that beats the donuts out of the factory wedge. Not hopped up charges with non black powder or substitutes . I don’t believe the originals with the correct arbor length had that issue with 50 grains or perhaps a few more. 45D probably can answer that question.
Snoot

 

[M. De Land]

Mike:
That is an excellent example of why the Walker beats the donuts out if the wedge with heavy loads. A tool steel wedge will undoubtedly beat the donuts out of the arbor slot. 45D has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Colt’s original design can and will handle heavy loads. Correctly fixing an incorrect arbor/arbor well restores Colt’s design. Pietta has corrected it, Uberti needs too as well but the shim ‘fix’ can and will do the job.
You can drive for a while on a flat tire (wedge gauge) but it is prudent to put on the spare instead (arbor shim) for the long haul.
Grandpa could fix anything with enough bailing wire but replacing the broken bolt would have been the correct way.
Snoot’s opinion loosely base on fact,
others may disagree.

That's not the same as saying an open frame design is as strong as a closed frame . We all know it's not if were honest ! Moving the goal posts again.
It's just saying so far we've gotten away with exceeding design limits with smokeless loads.
Folks do the same thing with Trapdoor rifles until they come apart !
Can't say about a Walker having no experience with one.
I think this calls for the purchase of a Walker so I can find out if these things you say are actually true !

 

[45D]

Sorry! I wasn’t being clear. I meant 50 grains (plus perhaps a few more) in a repro Walker that beats the donuts out of the factory wedge. Not hopped up charges with non black powder or substitutes . I don’t believe the originals with the correct arbor length had that issue with 50 grains or perhaps a few more. 45D probably can answer that question.
Snoot

Thanks Snooter!! I'm old but I'm not THAT old !!!

Since I've never heard of wedges being a problem concerning any of the first gen revolvers of any of the various models, I'd have to say it wasn't an issue . . . heck, they were important enough to be numbered to the revolver . . . ( so not really a consumable as often stated, only a consumable for reproductions!)!
Their biggest problem was an iron cylinder that just couldn't handle the full charges plus being loaded with the bullets inverted.

All that said, I'm sure they had a correct build!!
I had the same experience with wedges back in the 80's/90's though so I am well aware of the problems.

Mike

 

[45D]

That's not the same as saying an open frame design is as strong as a closed frame . We all know it's not if were honest ! Moving the goal posts again.
It's just saying so far we've gotten away with exceeding design limits with smokeless loads.
Folks to the same thing with Trapdoor rifles until they come apart !
Can't say about a Walker having no experience with one.

Maybe you didn't see post #224?

Well, you'd be wrong.
According to Brian Pearce, who has probably been using pressure equipment decades longer than you, lists - Colt SAA, New Frontier, Great Western Arms Frontier, Pietta, Great Western II, Taurus Gaucho as well as others ( those are all Top Strap revolvers), NOT suitable for 45C +p loads which operate at 23K psi. Likewise, the 45acp +p's operate at 23K psi as well.

My 1860 Uberti Army ( an open-top platform) can handle both. So what don't you understand about this?
My Dragoons do it easily ( they're open-top platforms as well).

So, that would put my open-top revolvers in the 2nd category that Mr. Pearce lists:
Post WWII S&W M.25's after 1977, M.625 Mt.Gun, Ruger New Vaquero, N.M.Blackhawk flattop ( .357 frame), USFA SAA Pre-war, Flattop Target, Rodeo, Standard Manufacturing S.A. and Uberti SAA replicas since 1990.

So, I'm happy with the group that they would be in. ( all those are Top Strap revolvers by the way).

Mike

 

[Snooterpup]

That's not the same as saying an open frame design is as strong as a closed frame . We all know it's not if were honest ! Moving the goal posts again.
It's just saying so far we've gotten away with exceeding design limits with smokeless loads.
Folks do the same thing with Trapdoor rifles until they come apart !
Can't say about a Walker having no experience with one.
I think this calls for the purchase of a Walker so I can find out if these things you say are actually true !

Sorry,
I’m following the thread on arbor lengths, not the open frame debate or trapdoor rifles being overcharged with smokeless. Serial numbered wedges on originals indicate it is probably not considered a ‘consumable’ item.
A recent survey suggests 12% still believe the earth is flat contrary to the truth.
Snoot over and out

 

[M. De Land]

That's not the same as saying an open frame design is as strong as a closed frame . We all know it's not if were honest ! Moving the goal posts again.
It's just saying so far we've gotten away with exceeding design limits with smokeless loads.
Folks to the same thing with Trapdoor rifles until they come apart !
Can't say about a Walker having no experience with one.
I think this calls for the purchase of a Walker so I can find out if these things you say are actually true !

Sorry,
I’m following the thread on arbor lengths, not the open frame debate or trapdoor rifles being overcharged with smokeless. Serial numbered wedges on originals indicate it is probably not considered a ‘consumable’ item.
A recent survey suggests 12% still believe the earth is flat contrary to the truth.
Snoot over and out

And those that subscribe to open frame strength equal to closed frame would be in the 12 percent category !

 

[Snooterpup]

And those that subscribe to open frame strength equal to closed frame would be in the 12 percent category !

Not in that debate. What part of a closed frame has an arbor well or arbor? I’m following an arbor fit thread. If I am responding to a moose thread why bring a walrus into the picture?
I give up.

 

[M. De Land]

Not in that debate. What part of a closed frame has an arbor well or arbor? I’m following an arbor fit thread. If I am responding to a moose thread why bring a walrus into the picture?
I give up.

That's the beauty of being the thread author ! I will have to get a Walker now and see if mine eats wedges. Could it be that the wedge metal is to soft or are we still assuming the barrel is bouncing back off the arbor slot and giving the wedge a run at the front of slot because of no end fit and that is causing the battering?
Well it could be but at this point I have my doubts that is happening.
I am enjoying the discussion though as it gets one to consider other notions about cause and effect .

 

[M. De Land]

That's not the same as saying an open frame design is as strong as a closed frame . We all know it's not if were honest ! Moving the goal posts again.
It's just saying so far we've gotten away with exceeding design limits with smokeless loads.
Folks do the same thing with Trapdoor rifles until they come apart !
Can't say about a Walker having no experience with one.
I think this calls for the purchase of a Walker so I can find out if these things you say are actually true !

Ok, I have a Uberti Walker on the way so will be able to check some of these speculative ideas out for myself !
How many full power loads does it take for the wedge to be toast generally? If it gets eaten I'll make one of mine and give it a try and in the end fix the short arbor. Should be a fun test run and very informative !

 

[Pete453]

or you subscribe to the barrel bouncing backward thinking.

if the wedge is fitted correctly the arbor upon firing does not matter.

So you guys don't think the barrel assembly will bounce during the firing cycle? Ok. Have you ever played with an anvil? A good one will bounce metal pretty good. The harmonics will put a ball bearing back in your hand if you drop it on the anvil face. What do you think the ringing sound is when working metal? If there's play involved, and room for things to move, it's going to move.
Don't believe me? I don't really care, my guns are set up the way I want them. This topic gets beaten to death over and over again, and we're no closer to agreeing. What a waste of time and space.

 

[M. De Land]

Yap, again I've proven they are as strong as any that can handle +p 45cal ammo.
You should try it sometime and see if your wedge won't eat the revolver up.

Mike

So you guys don't think the barrel assembly will bounce during the firing cycle? Ok. Have you ever played with an anvil? A good one will bounce metal pretty good. The harmonics will put a ball bearing back in your hand if you drop it on the anvil face. What do you think the ringing sound is when working metal? If there's play involved, and room for things to move, it's going to move.
Don't believe me? I don't really care, my guns are set up the way I want them. This topic gets beaten to death over and over again, and we're no closer to agreeing. What a waste of time and space.

Then why take the time and space to post your opinion if you really don't care ?
So we don't all agree on this subject, tell me any subject we all do agree on. The point is to debate and exchange thought to challenge our own and see if what we think will hold up .
Do you have a good anvil? Some are forged, some are cast and some won't bounce a ball bearing much at all but a good forged ones will.
What we have here is some pretty skilled craftsmen and hobbyist that have different opinion on how some of this stuff actually works and are hashing it out !

 

[M. De Land]

Then why take the time and space to post your opinion if you really don't care ?
So we don't all agree on this subject, tell me any subject we all do agree on. The point is to debate and exchange thought to challenge our own and see if what we think will hold up .
Do you have a good anvil? Some are forged, some are cast and some won't bounce a ball bearing much at all but a good forged ones will.
What we have here is some pretty skilled craftsmen and hobbyist that have different opinion on how some of this stuff actually works and are hashing it out !

I'll run the Walker through the paces with full power loads when I get it and start a new thread on how it holds up with the short arbor and factory wedge.

 

[BillRob]

Then why take the time and space to post your opinion if you really don't care ?
So we don't all agree on this subject, tell me any subject we all do agree on. The point is to debate and exchange thought to challenge our own and see if what we think will hold up .
Do you have a good anvil? Some are forged, some are cast and some won't bounce a ball bearing much at all but a good forged ones will.
What we have here is some pretty skilled craftsmen and hobbyist that have different opinion on how some of this stuff actually works and are hashing it out !

I recently purchased a Ridgid 165# anvil. I don't know about a ball bearing but it sure does bounce a hammer! Now - if I can just figure out how to make something with it!

 

[French Colonial]

I'll run the Walker through the paces with full power loads when I get it and start a new thread on how it holds up with the short arbor and factory wedge.

What brand of Walker will it be?

Out of curiosity I got the Uberti 1851 out last night and tried to measure the cylinder gap, with the hammer down it was to small to get my smallest feeler gauge in it, .0015..... hammer at half cock and pulling back on the cylinder while pushing forward on the barrel.... still cannot get the .0015 gauge in there.

In fact I cannot detect any movement between the frame and the barrel whatsoever while pushing and prodding so maybe I was the lucky one and got the perfect Uberti from the factory. It shoots really well.

Hope your Walker is put together as well.