To much is made of short arbors

[M. De Land]

Man oh man - ten pages of back and forth over this. M De Land said that shimming the arbor is a good idea several pages back.

Yeah, they'll shoot with a short arbor, and with minimal loads or minimal shooting, will probably be fine for a long time.

Without stress testing or an engineering evaluation, it's just opinion of which looks stronger - remington or open top. 45D Seems to have proven beyond a doubt the colt is very definitely not weaker than the Remington. If you think otherwise, you must think he's lying about his research.

The point about harmonics is what settled it for me, and that's not something easily visualized. Consider this - and those of you who've worked on old cars will know this - there's a way to remove frozen head studs using harmonics. You can pull as hard as you want to loosen a frozen stud but only mangle the thing or shear it off. However, if you tap on the stud while applying turning pressure, it'll break free. And I'm not talking about strong hammer blows - just light tapping. Things will vibrate at differing frequencies, so the stud will vibrate differently than the block, eventually breaking the bond between the two.

Besides the issue of changing head space gap with depth of wedge engagement, there's the issue of harmonics hammering these parts - barrel, wedge, arbor and frame. Frankly, I want them to be LOCKED! And I mean FIRMLY! I want them behaving as one piece.

Rather than putting the time in making a gauge to judge correct wedge depth, why not spend the same amount of time and shim the arbor?

I've always agreed end fitting the arbor by what ever method is a good modification but that was not the point of the thread. The point of the thread is that short arbor guns will work with out the upgrade and still be plenty accurate. They also outnumber the arbor end fit guns in use by thousands.
If your tired of the thread stop reading it !

 

[M. De Land]

Well, your example doesn't work for the setup.
Using your example for my setup, the barrel would be the ball being sent ( since that's last in the chain). Since the barrel on my setup is held tight against the arbor (ball you're hitting), you would have to put your foot on the other ball. Now hitting the first ball won't do anything to the second ball ( held by you foot). The force is transferred directly and handled as a single unit. The wedge is just there to hold the assemblies together with tension. The force is transferred directly through the arbor to the barrel assembly ( equal harmonics). If there's space between the arbor and barrel it interrupts the force and the wedge becomes a referee between to fighters.

Mike

It works , the ball hitting the forcing cone is the mallet, the rear barrel slots and wedge locks the arbor and barrel together in the forward thrust vector which transfers the energy forward through the wedge trying to take the end of the arbor with it. The arbor well is trying to move forward with the rest of the barrel it is one piece with. The arbor it self is trying to move in the opposite direction in recoil. If the arbor end is making contact then energy is going to be transferred through the wedge into the well bottom. Some of it will be mitigated by recoil impulse and metal elasticity granted but remember the harmonics/vibration you keep bring up in end contact. That is energy transfer forward other wise the wedge would not be trying to tear off the end of the arbor.

 

[45D]

That is energy transfer forward other wise the wedge would not be trying to tear off the end of the arbor.

The wedge isn't trying to tear off the end of the arbor, it's too busy pulling the barrel assy tight against the end of the arbor. "Keeping the hat on" as it were.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

The wedge isn't trying to tear off the end of the arbor, it's too busy pulling the barrel assy tight against the end of the arbor. "Keeping the hat on" as it were.

Mike

As the ball hits the forcing cone the wedge is being pulled forward by the rear barrel slots against the front end of the arbor slot ( the wedge is cam-ed against) is blocking the forward pressure while the rest of the arbor in moving rearward with the frame in recoil. If the arbor end is fit against the barrel arbor well end than the forward pressure energy is being transferred through it as well.
Think how a cue ball transfers energy when no English is applied. It contacts the ball it is aimed at transfers energy to send it up the table and then rolls a head slightly after transferring most of it's energy to the other ball.

 

[45D]

As the ball hits the forcing cone the wedge is being pulled forward by the rear barrel slots against the front end of the arbor slot ( the wedge is cam-ed against) is blocking the forward pressure while the rest of the arbor in moving rearward with the frame in recoil. If the arbor end is fit against the barrel arbor well end than the forward pressure energy is being transferred through it as well.
Think how a cue ball transfers energy when no English is applied. It contacts the ball it is aimed at transfers energy to send it up the table and then rolls a head slightly after transferring most of it's energy to the other ball.

Well you're getting there.
The ball/ conical/ bullet hits the barrel . . . the barrel, wedge and arbor aren't separate "stand alones" as a cue ball hitting another.

The barrel is joined (solidly) to the arbor by the wedge and THAT
structure would be the "standalone". With no space that would allow any movement whatsoever, it is a unit all it's own.
So, the impact on the barrel is trying to pull the arbor from the frame . . . not the barrel from the arbor or tug of war with the wedge.
All of my (personal) open-top platform revolvers get the arbor removed and re-torqued (which also allows me to "mate" the barrel with the frame, barrels literally will fall off without the wedge) for that very reason. I've got to know the arbor isn't just shy of being loose.

THIS is why my revolvers handle the ammo they use.

If the wedge was the "ticket" my wedges would show a lot of wear since they are "factory" wedges . . . they are all fine. The wedge "junction" is just a structural pass-through (because of contact) for mating the barrel to the arbor.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

I just find it impossible to understand. Why would anybody want to have a short arbor in a open top revolver. Mechanically it just is not correct, And the only reason for building that way is poor engineering and cost cutting. With a proper fitting cylinder gap and barrel resting on arbor the wedge gives tremendous pressure on the parts with just a tap fit in. There is no need to beat on the wedge, wearing it out. Realize plenty of open tops are working with short arbors, but why would you not want your revolver to be built correctly if possible. Same for the timing, why would you defend a revolver being out of time. They work better when tuned if necessary.

Because early bolt drop (before lead in cut) that most folks call out of time, isn't necessarily so. Virtually all Rugers drop before the lead in cut and if the bolt dome is polished this will not result in a gouge in the cylinder. A rub line yes but this hurts nothing. The benefit is the bolt spring tension brakes the continually increasing speed of the cylinder rotation inertia, through the cocking stroke, so the bolt does not slam into the back side of the cylinder notch as hard and loosen it up both in the notch and bolt window.
Out of time is when the cylinder won't advance while cocking or tries to turn before the bolt is clear the notch or the hand is short and it won't lock up when cocked with a finger dragging on the cylinder.
Timing issues are almost always hammer cam, hand length and/or bolt finger related. Some times it is bolt height adjustment and/or ratchet star profile so all need looked at with timing issues.

 

[M. De Land]

Well you're getting there.
The ball/ conical/ bullet hits the barrel . . . the barrel, wedge and arbor aren't separate "stand alones" as a cue ball hitting another.

The barrel is joined (solidly) to the arbor by the wedge and THAT
structure would be the "standalone". With no space that would allow any movement whatsoever, it is a unit all it's own.
So, the impact on the barrel is trying to pull the arbor from the frame . . . not the barrel from the arbor or tug of war with the wedge.
All of my (personal) open-top platform revolvers get the arbor removed and re-torqued (which also allows me to "mate" the barrel with the frame, barrels literally will fall off without the wedge) for that very reason. I've got to know the arbor isn't just shy of being loose.

THIS is why my revolvers handle the ammo they use.

If the wedge was the "ticket" my wedges would show a lot of wear since they are "factory" wedges . . . they are all fine. The wedge "junction" is just a structural pass-through (because of contact) for mating the barrel to the arbor.

Mike

What happens when an arbor fails, does it pull loose out of the frame threads or does the end let go where the wedge makes contact at the end of the slot .The only one I saw took the end of the arbor off where it failed above and below the arbor slot. The arbor threads into the frame held because they have much more purchase power than does the thin cross section above and below the arbor slot ! Will they loosen in the frame thread, occasionally, especially brass framed guns, but this in not where they would come apart on the rare occasion of it happening..
Another thought I have kicked around is what makes arbor frame threads loosen? My guess is because the arbors threads are being impact loaded on an angle rather than straight ahead and this is caused by to much or to little lower lug tension making the arbor impact load directed upward or downward at firing .

 

[45D]

Because early bolt drop (before lead in cut) that most folks call out of time, isn't necessarily so. Virtually all Rugers drop before the lead in cut and if the bolt dome is polished this will not result in a gouge in the cylinder. A rub line yes but this hurts nothing. The benefit is the bolt spring tension brakes the continually increasing speed of the cylinder rotation inertia, through the cocking stroke, so the bolt does not slam into the back side of the cylinder notch as hard and loosen it up both in the notch and bolt window.
Out of time is when the cylinder won't advance while cocking or tries to turn before the bolt is clear the notch or the hand is short and it won't lock up when cocked with a finger dragging on the cylinder.
Timing issues are almost always hammer cam, hand length and/or bolt finger related. Some times it is bolt height adjustment and/or ratchet star profile so all need looked at with timing issues.

The biggest reason for "beauty rings" on a Ruger is because of the loading gate dropping the bolt out of the locking notch (using Colt parlance here) when loading/unloading. The user usually closes the gate and manually rotates the cylinder to lock it up. That and a weak hand spring which induces throw-by (oh boy).

As far as timing, there is definitely a proper sequence. Take a peek at your Kuhnhausen book. Long before Ruger ever made a revolver. The three screw Rugers adhered to Colts timing.

Mike

 

[45D]

What happens when an arbor fails, does it pull loose out of the frame threads or does the end let go where the wedge makes contact at the end of the slot .The only one I saw took the end of the arbor off where it failed above and below the arbor slot. The arbor threads into the frame have much more purchase power than does the thin cross section above and below the arbor slot ! Will they loosen in the frame thread, occasionally, especially brass framed guns, but this in not where they would come apart on the rare accasion of it happening..

My explanation above was for a "correct" build . . .
So, yes, the arbor can fail at the end if there is no contact ( thought that was a given). As far as the arbor pulling from the frame, I wouldn't know ( why i re-torque them) . . . it hasn't happened with +p ammo yet but we shall see. They're all as tight as I set them up to be.

Mike

 

[dickydalton]

All I know is when I said someone was spouting drivel only one person said fish on! I never named him but he was proud!

 

[SDSmlf]

I notice you keep right on posting though ! So does that make you a connoisseur of dribble then ?

I’ve learned a few things on this thread. Particularly like the 3rd pin and the set screw someone recommended. Looking at more than a dozen candidates to figure out who will be first in the interest of science.

I do have a simple question for you. The first Uberti Walker I owned ate wedges when I used 50 to 60 grain charges under a roundball. I would set the wedge in the barrel so the cylinder would turn. Similar to your gauge, just not as precise I would imagine. 2 to 3 cylinders and the wedge looked like a train wreck. Replaced the wedge a number of times. Made no sense. Sold gun to a buddy who eventually got it to shoot without killing the wedge by extending the arbor. Call it the aha moment. Believe he added about .200 to the arbor. Subsequent Uberti Walkers I obtained, I immediately, before shooting, took care of the deep hole/short arbor thing before firing first shot out of the gun. Found I could shoot all say with max loads (full chamber) without damaging the wedge (I am a fan of a guy named Dick Casull and his spin on cartridge revolvers).

My question. Why did my Walker with a short arbor shooting heavy charges destroy wedges? How would your gauge solve the problem.

 

[M. De Land]

Well you're getting there.
The ball/ conical/ bullet hits the barrel . . . the barrel, wedge and arbor aren't separate "stand alones" as a cue ball hitting another.

The barrel is joined (solidly) to the arbor by the wedge and THAT
structure would be the "standalone". With no space that would allow any movement whatsoever, it is a unit all it's own.
So, the impact on the barrel is trying to pull the arbor from the frame . . . not the barrel from the arbor or tug of war with the wedge.
All of my (personal) open-top platform revolvers get the arbor removed and re-torqued (which also allows me to "mate" the barrel with the frame, barrels literally will fall off without the wedge) for that very reason. I've got to know the arbor isn't just shy of being loose.

THIS is why my revolvers handle the ammo they use.

If the wedge was the "ticket" my wedges would show a lot of wear since they are "factory" wedges . . . they are all fine. The wedge "junction" is just a structural pass-through (because of contact) for mating the barrel to the arbor.

Mike

It's all the same, at firing the wedge links the arbor and barrel clear back to the threads in the frame via the forward pressure vector . The weakest part of the of the arbor (slot) is the most likely to fail. That connects the portion trapped in front of the wedge. The barrel being a single unit with the arbor well is trying to move forward but the frame connected to the arbor is trying to move rearward being a separate mass in recoil. The cylinder is pushing the frame away from the barrel and the arbor is threaded to the frame. The end of the arbor ahead of the wedge is being pressured forward with the barrel by the rear of the wedge in the rear barrel slots. The main body of the arbor being threaded to the frame is moving in the opposite direction of the barrel, in recoil. The barrel via the wedge is trying to separate the end of the arbor and take it forward. The failure I saw was at this weakest point in the chain and it went forward with the barrel. Because of the non connected joint at arbors end It makes no difference at all if it is making contact or not it merely pulls apart at it's weakest point when pressured forward beyond it's tensile strength.

 

[Blackpowderart]

I'm a mechanic by trade, so understanding how things work mechanically comes natural to me. For other's it is obvious it does not. A blind squirrel could figure out short arbors are a problem. I know,.I know... it takes a LITTLE work to fix it, but that's only a one time deal.

I would agree with all the naysayers but then we would both be wrong

 

[45D]

I’ve learned a few things on this thread. Particularly like the 3rd pin and the set screw someone recommended. Looking at more than a dozen candidates to figure out who will be first in the interest of science.

I do have a simple question for you. The first Uberti Walker I owned ate wedges when I used 50 to 60 grain charges under a roundball. I would set the wedge in the barrel so the cylinder would turn. Similar to your gauge, just not as precise I would imagine. 2 to 3 cylinders and the wedge looked like a train wreck. Replaced the wedge a number of times. Made no sense. Sold gun to a buddy who eventually got it to shoot without killing the wedge by extending the arbor. Call it the aha moment. Believe he added about .200 to the arbor. Subsequent Uberti Walkers I obtained, I immediately, before shooting, took care of the deep hole/short arbor thing before firing first shot out of the gun. Found I could shoot all say with max loads (full chamber) without damaging the wedge (I am a fan of a guy named Dick Casull and his spin on cartridge revolvers).

My question. Why did my Walker with a short arbor shooting heavy charges destroy wedges?

Easy, the guy fixed the arbor length.

It's really simple but as you can see in this thread and many others some folks just don't have mechanical ability. You can show them, answer the same questions differently ( in hopes of helping others understand if they are seeing for the first time).
This forum is definitely a time warp backward for this topic!!

Mike

 

[GYJ]

Some people only pick through posts to find something to argue with. Even if it's only to make an irrelevant point.

The point here is that people simply assume that they went to the solid frame because it's stronger. No evidence supports that. Quite a bit refutes it.

Ok you be the first to build a 475 Linebaugh open top, we will wait

So William Mason designed the SAA in 1872 because 110yrs later John Linebaugh was going to build .475's on Rugers???

I think Sam realized Remington was going to run off with all his revolver business if he didn't get on the stick with the stronger design. There is no question but that the Remington 58 influenced the solid frame design in the 73 Colt revolver.
I also think the reason the Army wanted the solid frame was because early conversions were a supplement to a outdated design not made for metallic cartridge use.
The Army had already pulled one boner converting existing stocks of Springfield muskets to trapdoor breech loaders for metallic cartridge use.
I both love and shoot Trapdoor Springfields but for our Army to adopt that stop gap measure when the Rolling block rifles were available never made much sense to me.
Then they go up against the 7mm Mauser repeater in the Spanish American war with the trapdoor initially.

Hate to break it to you but Sam Colt had been dead for 10yrs when the SAA was designed. William Mason designed the SAA, I already posted that.

Because early bolt drop (before lead in cut) that most folks call out of time, isn't necessarily so. Virtually all Rugers drop before the lead in cut and if the bolt dome is polished this will not result in a gouge in the cylinder. A rub line yes but this hurts nothing. The benefit is the bolt spring tension brakes the continually increasing speed of the cylinder rotation inertia, through the cocking stroke, so the bolt does not slam into the back side of the cylinder notch as hard and loosen it up both in the notch and bolt window.
Out of time is when the cylinder won't advance while cocking or tries to turn before the bolt is clear the notch or the hand is short and it won't lock up when cocked with a finger dragging on the cylinder.
Timing issues are almost always hammer cam, hand length and/or bolt finger related. Some times it is bolt height adjustment and/or ratchet star profile so all need looked at with timing issues.

Only Ruger New Models. Old Models are timed like a Colt. Ole Bill designed it this way intentionally and it really doesn't matter as far as the ring. Because you're going to close the gate and rotate the cylinder to lock anyway.

The bolt rising early or at the tip of the leede makes no difference as far as battering the notch.

 

[M. De Land]

Some people only pick through posts to find something to argue with. Even if it's only to make an irrelevant point.



So William Mason designed the SAA in 1872 because 110yrs later John Linebaugh was going to build .475's on Rugers???




Hate to break it to you but Sam Colt had been dead for 10yrs when the SAA was designed. William Mason designed the SAA, I already posted that.



Only Ruger New Models. Old Models are timed like a Colt. Ole Bill designed it this way intentionally and it really doesn't matter as far as the ring. Because you're going to close the gate and rotate the cylinder to lock anyway.

The bolt rising early or at the tip of the leede makes no difference as far as battering the notch.

Ok then the folks who were running Colt at the time realized they would need a solid frame gun to stay in business. Any way you want to cut it the point is that the open frame percussion gun design was finished in that era until about 1963 when the reproduction market was established from Italy !
And how many decades have passed since Ruger made a three screw..................... five maybe ?
Yeah, it does help brake cylinder rotation inertia and soften it's lock up stop.

 

[M. De Land]

Easy, the guy fixed the arbor length.

It's really simple but as you can see in this thread and many others some folks just don't have mechanical ability. You can show them, answer the same questions differently ( in hopes of helping others understand if they are seeing for the first time).
This forum is definitely a time warp backward for this topic!!

Mike

An you are so enlightened you still believe an open frame gun as strong as a closed frame. Why that is shear brilliance on display !
I don't actually think your dumb enough to really believe that !
I do wonder why you would want to lead others down that path of ignorance though. Must be good for business !

 

[M. De Land]

I’ve learned a few things on this thread. Particularly like the 3rd pin and the set screw someone recommended. Looking at more than a dozen candidates to figure out who will be first in the interest of science.

I do have a simple question for you. The first Uberti Walker I owned ate wedges when I used 50 to 60 grain charges under a roundball. I would set the wedge in the barrel so the cylinder would turn. Similar to your gauge, just not as precise I would imagine. 2 to 3 cylinders and the wedge looked like a train wreck. Replaced the wedge a number of times. Made no sense. Sold gun to a buddy who eventually got it to shoot without killing the wedge by extending the arbor. Call it the aha moment. Believe he added about .200 to the arbor. Subsequent Uberti Walkers I obtained, I immediately, before shooting, took care of the deep hole/short arbor thing before firing first shot out of the gun. Found I could shoot all say with max loads (full chamber) without damaging the wedge (I am a fan of a guy named Dick Casull and his spin on cartridge revolvers).

My question. Why did my Walker with a short arbor shooting heavy charges destroy wedges? How would your gauge solve the problem.

I'd have to see it myself but if it was eating wedges as you describe I would set it back , trim the lower lug to match, make a tool steel wedge that fit correctly and end fit the arbor.
Apparently the barrel was getting a run at the wedge from poor fit some where but if it was tight in the rear barrel slots against the arbor slot front there is no reason for it to batter unless it was squirting out/loose with each shot or you subscribe to the barrel bouncing backward thinking.
I have never worked on or even shot a Walker . Do all factory Walkers from Uberti or Peitta behave as yours did unless tune up or was yours a lemon ? I've not heard this of them but I have heard most need the loading lever fixed to not drop with each shot.

 

[DixieTexian]

I'm pretty sure the Army wasn't worried about whether or not their new revolver could shoot magnum loads that weren't developed yet at the time. But I'm also pretty sure they were worried about the myriad of non shooting things that can happen to a revolver, like if your revolver falls in the heat of battle and a horse steps on it, will you be able to pick it up and still fire it? Or what happens to it when you hand it to and LT or private? Will it return to you still functional?

 

[45D]

I'd have to see it myself but if it was eating wedges as you describe I would set it back , trim the lower lug to match, make a tool steel wedge that fit correctly and end fit the arbor.
Apparently the barrel was getting a run at the wedge from poor fit some where but if it was tight in the rear barrel slots against the arbor slot front there is no reason for it to batter unless it was squirting out/loose with each shot or you subscribe to the barrel bouncing backward thinking.
I have never worked on or even shot a Walker . Do all factory Walkers from Uberti or Peitta behave as yours did unless tune up or was yours a lemon ? I've not heard this of them but I have heard most need the loading lever fixed to not drop with each shot.

The wedge was getting beat up because you couldn't seat it tight enough ( short arbor). They all (Uberti, ASM, ASP. Pietta doesn't make horse pistols) will do that with heavy 50-60gr charges until you fix the problem. Fix the problem, problem goes away. Works every time. Done a bunch of them.
Dragoons are me favorite.

Mike