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Rangers Musket

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This is a familiar discussion, regarding Rangers Muskets.

Found this for sale at Sittingfox‘s website.

I think its a good representation of a rangers musket.

Overall the gun retains the 1740 style lock with a slimmed down stock, or even possible a restock in maple.

The typical .75 caliber barrel that is shortened.

While retaining all of the traditional brass; including a wrist plate.

I’d expect this gun to have 3 rammer pipes, this one seems to have two for the larger diameter wooden ramrod.

http://sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/f-334/
 
Ranger musket? Sea Service muskets were used by the Royal Navy, and blacked. Does anyone have any documentation from primary sources on cut down muskets used by Rogers Rangers?
An excellent read for source material is "The Annotated and Illustrated Journals of Major Robert Rogers" by Tim Todish and Gary Zaboly.
 
Hi,
I have a different opinion of this gun. Ranger carbines are a mystery with very little reliable documentation. The lock looks to be India made that they worked over. They say "assembled" in America, not made. The barrel does not look like one from a Bess and the breech decoration looks hokey. The stock is crudely carved and clumsy although perhaps not inconsistent with colonial production at the time. The forward sling swivel is positioned incorrectly and will interfere with returning the ramrod. It should rest on one of the ramrod pipes so it does not block the ramrod channel. The nose band or cap is bizarre. The only thing "sea service" about the gun is the butt plate. Why not use the barrel, lock and other hardware too? Sea service guns were issued both black and bright.

dave
 
Hi,
I have a different opinion of this gun. Ranger carbines are a mystery with very little reliable documentation. The lock looks to be India made that they worked over. They say "assembled" in America, not made. The barrel does not look like one from a Bess and the breech decoration looks hokey. The stock is crudely carved and clumsy although perhaps not inconsistent with colonial production at the time. The forward sling swivel is positioned incorrectly and will interfere with returning the ramrod. It should rest on one of the ramrod pipes so it does not block the ramrod channel. The nose band or cap is bizarre. The only thing "sea service" about the gun is the butt plate. Why not use the barrel, lock and other hardware too? Sea service guns were issued both black and bright.

dave

I agree Dave on the Lock, it looks Indian made, the upper post is too square and bulky and the flintcock doesn’t have the more gracious shape like most originals and reproductions.

The barrel looks like its customized, by Greg Christian, his barrels look a lot like this.

Where I disagree is on the what a Ranger Musket is technically supposed to look like.

I have a friend who is having one made, and I start with the following.

1. Rangers were irregular troops, there were no standards for them.
2. Rangers were armed with what was available or personally owned arms.
3. The most widely available arms to rangers were contract muskets and older Brown Bess Muskets (or Dutch) and captured French Guns.
4. Some guns were cutdown, some were not.
5. Later Rangering Groups by Butler were said to be armed with 1769 shortlands but I never found evidence of this.
6. Queens Rangers under Simco received more military training and may have been armed with full service Brown Bess Muskets, there’s no documentation of this, but Simco did operate the Queens Rangers much like light infantry.

My conclusion on the rangers musket is that the best representation of one is a cut down model 1740 or 1755 musket Or simply a shorthand pattern Brown Bess.

Otherwise, I think the gun is good, looks well made, but not worth 2200, I wouldn’t pay more than 900 for it.
 
I am a bit stunned that someone skilled enough to make that gun would make such an obvious mistake with the front sling swivel.

I have a Pedersoli Bess Carbine that would make a great gun restocked like that...hmmm.

Does anyone know where I can get that side plate? Would like to replace the serpent that is on the gun now.
 
I am a bit stunned that someone skilled enough to make that gun would make such an obvious mistake with the front sling swivel.

I have a Pedersoli Bess Carbine that would make a great gun restocked like that...hmmm.

Does anyone know where I can get that side plate? Would like to replace the serpent that is on the gun now.

I’m not surprised, I’ve had gunsmiths who claim to be accurate and detailed put that sling swivel on the stock without a lug brazed to the barrel or correctly located.

At the end of the day, knowing what the Brown Bess is and how it was made is just as important as workmanship.
 
Advertising it as a Rangers musket will sell it to some who want a short gun. For avid historians, it opens a can of worms. I’ll say a 36” barrel on a musket for military use on land seems well out of place. But the Rangers label covers that in the minds of some. There’s been a concerted effort to find evidence for shortened Rogers Rangers gun’s for 50 years or so, to the point where it’s accepted by many.
 
Advertising it as a Rangers musket will sell it to some who want a short gun. For avid historians, it opens a can of worms. I’ll say a 36” barrel on a musket for military use on land seems well out of place. But the Rangers label covers that in the minds of some. There’s been a concerted effort to find evidence for shortened Rogers Rangers gun’s for 50 years or so, to the point where it’s accepted by many.

Personally I‘ve bought into the whole ranger musket specifications, only because irregular units carried what ever they had and what was available.

If it were me, I’d just get a track of the wolf Brown Bess and shorting the barrel and stock from 46 to 38 - 41 inches And call it a day.
 
I think its a good representation of a rangers musket.

Have to disagree with you there....maybe..... 😶


"Rangers" were provincial troops, not necessarily "irregulars". To discuss Rangers during the F&I one must discuss the particular unit. For example Rogers Rangers started out providing their own weapons, BUT Rogers later contracted out to have muskets made, and these were proofed by the Royal Artillery in the colonies. What the barrel length of these muskets was, is not known, but since they were paid for by The Crown, it is thought they would have resembled a LLP Bess, a Dutch musket, or a sea service musket since the gun builder had to know what he was building, and those three muskets were widely known and accepted in British service. Rogers Rangers also had access to captured French muskets. There is NO evidence of any of Rogers muskets being "cut down". (The "barrel pieces" found on Rogers Island are a mystery.) It is HIGHLY unlikely that actual military LLP muskets, the property of The King, would've been cut down. Whether or not they would have cut down the American procured muskets after purchase and proofing is anybody's guess, but it would explain a lot..., except there is not documentation of what happened to those muskets (so far).

Durham's Rangers are not documented as having anything other than personal guns, while Rangers in Maryland (existing since the 1600's and armed by the colony) had Old versions of the LLP Bess, or a Dutch musket. Speaking of which...., "carbine" did not automatically mean a dramatically "short" barreled gun as it does in 20th and 21st century vernacular. "Carbine" could and often did mean a copy of the LLP Bess, but with a smaller caliber barrel, such as .69 or .65 caliber, and the "shortening " of the barrel might be a mere 4" or less. ( IF the British army shortened the musket..., they would've made sure it took a bayonet.)

Jump ahead to the AWI, and you have The Queen's Rangers which although provincial, were supported by the British Military, and were issued muskets. As was the Loyal American Regiment. Butler's Rangers too were supplied with British arms, but also operated with Natives, and as they were formed from refugees from NY, personal arms and/or trade guns were what they likely carried.

Now normal line sergeants and fifers in the British Army during the AWI were being issued artillery carbines shortly after the AWI started. They were quite short but they were also .65 caliber. There is no evidence that British muskets were "cut down" for particular units during the AWI..., short muskets were made that way, and were not available in large supply.

Finally, as far as this gun goes...,
IF I dropped $1800.00 large on a musket, I'd sure as Old Hobb's stinky backside, expect the inletting of the the lock to be a proper job and the engraving on the lock not to have "chatter marks" from improper stamping.

FUBAR LOCK MORTISE.JPG


IF you want a short gun, suitable for an early Ranger character. I'd suggest you get a British Trade Gun, or a Carolina gun, painted in reddish brown, not the blue version.

LD
 
Have to disagree with you there....maybe..... 😶


"Rangers" were provincial troops, not necessarily "irregulars". To discuss Rangers during the F&I one must discuss the particular unit. For example Rogers Rangers started out providing their own weapons, BUT Rogers later contracted out to have muskets made, and these were proofed by the Royal Artillery in the colonies. What the barrel length of these muskets was, is not known, but since they were paid for by The Crown, it is thought they would have resembled a LLP Bess, a Dutch musket, or a sea service musket since the gun builder had to know what he was building, and those three muskets were widely known and accepted in British service. Rogers Rangers also had access to captured French muskets. There is NO evidence of any of Rogers muskets being "cut down". (The "barrel pieces" found on Rogers Island are a mystery.) It is HIGHLY unlikely that actual military LLP muskets, the property of The King, would've been cut down. Whether or not they would have cut down the American procured muskets after purchase and proofing is anybody's guess, but it would explain a lot..., except there is not documentation of what happened to those muskets (so far).

Durham's Rangers are not documented as having anything other than personal guns, while Rangers in Maryland (existing since the 1600's and armed by the colony) had Old versions of the LLP Bess, or a Dutch musket. Speaking of which...., "carbine" did not automatically mean a dramatically "short" barreled gun as it does in 20th and 21st century vernacular. "Carbine" could and often did mean a copy of the LLP Bess, but with a smaller caliber barrel, such as .69 or .65 caliber, and the "shortening " of the barrel might be a mere 4" or less. ( IF the British army shortened the musket..., they would've made sure it took a bayonet.)

Jump ahead to the AWI, and you have The Queen's Rangers which although provincial, were supported by the British Military, and were issued muskets. As was the Loyal American Regiment. Butler's Rangers too were supplied with British arms, but also operated with Natives, and as they were formed from refugees from NY, personal arms and/or trade guns were what they likely carried.

Now normal line sergeants and fifers in the British Army during the AWI were being issued artillery carbines shortly after the AWI started. They were quite short but they were also .65 caliber. There is no evidence that British muskets were "cut down" for particular units during the AWI..., short muskets were made that way, and were not available in large supply.

Finally, as far as this gun goes...,
IF I dropped $1800.00 large on a musket, I'd sure as Old Hobb's stinky backside, expect the inletting of the the lock to be a proper job and the engraving on the lock not to have "chatter marks" from improper stamping.

View attachment 42335

IF you want a short gun, suitable for an early Ranger character. I'd suggest you get a British Trade Gun, or a Carolina gun, painted in reddish brown, not the blue version.

LD

The only reference I’ve ever seen on a rangers musket is in Neuman’s book on page 65, but the musket is a SL 1777 Brown Bess marked ‘Queens Rangers’.

Great points all around Dave, I would expect a ranger would have had plenty of French muskets to choose from during the F&I War. The French stock piled more 1728 muskets then they had troops and militia to use them.

Regarding the cut down muskets, I had always assumed that many American Militia had cut down older long land pattern muskets as seen in many early irregular militia units.

Regarding this musket, I think it has good ideas but is vastly over priced, the tooling marks around the lock mortise, Indian made lock and incorrect placement of parts make this gun priced around 1000, even then I wouldn’t buy into it.

Personally I’ve never bought into the whole ’rangers musket’. If I were part of a ranger unit I would simply just carry a Brown Bess or early charleville like you mentioned.
 
Anyone have a suggestion on where I could get a Bess stock In curly maple to restock my carbine similar to this RR gun in the OP?

Knobb Mountain Muzzle-loading. Dave Keck has a Long land 1755 pattern butt stock that he can make into various lengths.

Its precarved for the butt stock, barrel and ramrod.

You can contact the Rifle Shoppe and ask Jess Melot for a carbine stock blank too. But in my experiences, the Rifle Shoppe Stocks are not always the best In regards to premium cuts.
 
My first thought is : Dont put curly in a bess. But on second thought, I do have a photo of a colonial civilian smoothie that looks more like a musket then a fowling gun. Is on curly and sports a patch box, though it’s general styling is robust.
 
My first thought is : Dont put curly in a bess. But on second thought, I do have a photo of a colonial civilian smoothie that looks more like a musket then a fowling gun. Is on curly and sports a patch box, though it’s general styling is robust.

Walnut with a slight curl is a very interesting look. It was used on some French muskets. Here is a 1763 original in walnut with a slight curl / stripe to it.
 

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I have a BROWN BESS MUSKET that is an 80 bore rifled WALL GUN. that weighs in at 28 LBS. I shoot it from a bench of course. it takes 200 GRS, of 1 FG, or CANNON POWDER. and a .790 RB. with a pillow ticking patch. and the stock is a CHIEF'S SPECIAL IN RED PAINT. it was made by TERRY BARLOW, in MAINE, 30 plus, or more years ago. I made a pole out of a wooden closet rod, with an ore lock wrapped in leather, for it to rest on when shooting it not off of the bench.
 
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