New to muzzle loading, several questions.

[Zeb]

I bought a used CVA Frontier the day before yesterday. I bought it on a whim after hearing a guy advertise it on "Swap and Shop" which is a local morning radio show.I probably paid too much for it at $180.The gun looks great,and has a good bore,and plenty of brass on it,and has a nice carving of a Bison on the stock.I got about 20 balls,a starter,and some of that bed ticking patch material,and a can of #11primers,and a jug of Pyrodex.I bought some of them Pennsylvania conical bullets on sale as well.I went out to the farm to shoot it yesterday, and was surprised at the way the powder looked.It has a price tag of $16 on it,so I assume it is old.Is it supposed to be a medium gray color, and the consistency of crumbled dry dirt?.I loaded it up with 70 gr.and one of the Pennsylvania bullets,and when went to put my cap on the nipple it didn't want to go.I pushed it on anyways, and it didn't go off. I tried it again, and still it would not fire I put another primer on, and with the muzzle in a safe direction I put another cap on, and shoved it on the nipple with the bullet starter.I had to shove it hard.I tried it and the gun went off.I tried a few more times,and had mixed results.I noticed that the nipple on the gun is chrome color, which I found odd but I just figured It was a replacement. I came to the conclusion that the guy I got it from probably never shot it,or thought it didn't function right.I assume the nipple was for a bigger cap.I took the nipple off,and filed it down,and the caps go on with hard finger pressure,and I fired 6 shots with no misfires.I noticed the flat pin that holds the stock on the barrel fits pretty loosely ,and I would hate to lose it.Is there a way to prevent the pin from backing out?.Should that bracket that dovetails into the barrel that the pin goes through mate so loose to the barrel that it falls out without the stock being on,or should it fit tight like a dovetail sight?.I was pleased enough with the accuracy of the gun,and feel that with some practice, and load tuning it will make a pretty good shooter.I never loaded any balls in it yet,but I plan to.I watch videos on YouTube,and most people don't seen to lube their patch.Why is this? Does the patch need lubed?,and if it does would sizing wax be a good lube?What is good lube? I know I have asked a lot of questions, so this is the last one for now.How long can you leave a rifle loaded with Pyrodex without risking corrosion?..Thanks

 

[hanshi]

Either the nipple has a "mushroomed" tip from dry firing or you need to use the next larger size of caps. Pyrodex is very corrosive so thorough cleaning is mandatory with possible additional cleaning the next day or so. Spit is a good lube if not left in the bore more than a short while. Mink oil or even Crisco can work. Always lube the patches.

 

[Phil Coffins]

Hanshi covered it well. The loose flat pin is called a key and the loop under the barrel that it goes threw can be tapped a bit to get a firmer fit. It won’t take much. Don’t spare the water when you clean that Pyrodex out!

 

[Walkingeagle]

First off, welcome to the forum. I am from Canada so I cannot comment as to whether or not you over paid, but it sounds to me like you did not. There are many here who will provide further comment as to your questions as well, but I will start things off.
1) If possible try and provide us some pictures so we can better assist you.
2) The wedge key (the thing holding your barrel on). No it should not be loose. Simply bend it slightly and reinsert with the belly of the bend downward until you are satisfied it is tight.
3) Lets talk cleaning. It does not sound as though you got a cleaning jag (slightly smaller than bore size brass attachment for the end of your ramrod). Once fired, black powder, or any artificial black powder (Pyrodex), is very corrosive and you will need to clean your rifles bore, and the area around the lock, once shooting is finished. Water is the easiest and cheapest way to accomplish this. Just soak a patch, place over the bore and push it down slowly with your cleaning jag on your ramrod, pull it straight back out. Repeat with follow up cleaning patches until they come out clean. Then proceed with drying patches until bore is dry. Once fully dry run an oiled patch down and follow that with further drying patches. You don’t require lots of lube in/on your gun.
Use wet rag to clean the external areas around the lock and dry after. If you have not yet cleaned the ml after shooting, I recommend doings so adap.
More to come....

 

[Kansas Jake]

I think you did a good job starting out as a newbie. Since you cleaned up the nipple you may be able to continue with that nipple with a little more filing around the top. The chrome look is just the way some nipples look depending on the manufacturer. Since the Pyrodex fired fine when the nipple went off you probably can use the rest of it without a problem even if it is somewhat old. It may not be as consistent as real black powder or a new bottle of Pyrodex. Hanshi nailed it on cleaning after shooting Pyrodex. Don't clean it as you would a modern gun. You need to cleaning practices specific to muzzle loaders. There are a number of thread here on cleaning.

On the loose barrel pin, try putting in different ways i.e. turn it over or push it in from the other side to see if one way is more snug. On my guns if I have a loose pin and the other doesn't work, I take the barrel out and give the center of the barrel lug a light tap with a hammer to give a little bend until the pin fits snug. I want mine to be snug enough that it takes a good strong push to come out. Maybe even using a screw driver etc to start it out. You don't want it so tight you have to beat on it to get it in or out of the stock.

I hope this helps and welcome to the fun of front stuffers.

 

[Zeb]

Is the actual black powder less corrosive,or better in anyway than Pyrodex?.I cleaned it last night with a 20 gauge brush,and mopped it with some T.C.bore cleaner,and then I ran several tight fitting patches thru it.It came good,and clean.The ramrod that came with the gun has a jag on it,but I was afraid of getting a patch stuck down the barrel.I don't think it is the right though because it is black plastic rather than wooden.Should Pyrodex look like gray dirt?,and how many shots should one take before cleaning the barrel during load development?

 

[Walkingeagle]

Cont....
4) The nipple likely needs replacing. They are not expensive and can be ordered fron Dixie Gun Works, Track of the Wolf, etc. Just ensure you get the correct thread size.
5) While ordering, might as well get a proper powder measure (I am assuming here you have no accessories based on the information provided), and powder flask or horn. I’m unsure how you acheived the 70gr of powder but it is imparative that you know black powder (or substitutes) are measured by volume and NOT weight.
A nipple wrench is also very handy to have.
6) Prior to any loading you need to fire off a couple caps without a load in the gun. “Snap a cap” so to speak, to ensure flash channel is clear and dry. This will greatly prevent frusturations from fail to fires.
7) Always ensure the bullet (or patched ball) is seated firmly on the powder charge, but not so much as to crush the powder.
8) Pyrodex looks exactly as you described. Should be using Pyrodex RS, Select or P, or authentic black powder ffg or fffg only (there are other substitutes also) but never smokeless powder!!
Hope this helps to start, there is much more to learn. Keep it safe and enjoy!
Walk

 

[Baxter]

Hello and welcome Zeb. I haven't used Pyrodex in some 30 years, but as I recall, it was gray. Black powder IS less corrosive but still requires cleaning. During load development, I would swab after every shot so that each shot starts from the same bore condition. I guess that "black plastic" indicates that you may have a Delrin rod; they are strong enough but ugly as can be (to me). I am in the "bend the tenon key, not the tenon" camp - keys are expendable.

 

[Zeb]

I reload for most of my center fire rifles,and have one of them old Lee dipper sets ,and the sliding chart that comes with them list Hodgdon Pyrodex RS. I dipped out my charges with these.I am going to order a few blackpowder accessories including a decent measure.

 

[Zonie]

Sounds like the other members are getting you off to a good start.

If your dipping powder out of the Pyrodex jar make darn sure you have reinstalled the lid on it before you take a shot.
These muzzleloaders often send sparks flying in all sorts of directions and the last thing you want is for one of them to fall into an open jar.

Don't bother looking for caps larger than #11. Years ago there were some but they don't exist outside of collectors collections any more.

There is a MUCH larger cap called a Musket cap but it will be much too large for your guns nipple.
You did the right thing by filing down your existing nipple cone. You might want to file it down just a hair more because if everything is right, your #11 caps should push completely on the cone with just the pressure of your thumb. Once on, they should not easily slide off.

It's normal for the cap to blow to smithereens when the gun fires so if yours is doing that, don't worry. That's why the nose of the hammer has that recess in it.
The walls of the recess hopefully keep the cap fragments from hitting you when the gun fires.

Have fun and welcome to the forum.

 

[renegadehunter]

Yes, you definitely want to lube the patches when you start shooting roundball. It serves to keep the fouling soft and make loading on a fouled barrel easier, and helps keep the patch from burning up. Search "patch lube" on here and you can read for the next couple years on what comes up.
A liquid patch lube is for target shooting at the range when the load won't sit in the gun for very long. This type of patch lube will dry out over time and also soak into the powder after a while. You want this type of patch lube applied so that the patch is damp but not wet. As in you can't wring any liquid out of it by squeezing it between your fingers. Some examples are Hoppes Black Powder solvent, Birchwood Casey #77 Muzzle Magic, and various "Moose Milk" recipes.
A grease or non petroleum natural oil type patch lube can be used for target shooting or hunting. These consist of Bore Butter or Wonderlube types, Crisco, Olive Oil, rendered fat from various animals (FYI bacon grease always immediately comes to peoples minds, but it is a poor choice due to all of the salt in it). Like I said do a search and you will see that about everything under the sun has been tried and used.
Also, you asked about how long you can leave the rifle loaded without risking corrosion. Unfired black powder or subs aren't corrosive. It is after it has been set off that it becomes corrosive, so as long as the barrel was clean the rifle could be left loaded for as long as a person is willing to risk the powder drawing moisture and becoming benign. Also coming into play would be the barrel protection during this time.

 

[Zeb]

The reason I asked about how long one could be kept loaded without damage is because I plan to be hunting with it the next few evenings,and was wondering if I could just store it loaded if I don't take a shot for a couple days.This new "Heritage season" starts tomorrow, and runs thru Sunday.I saw the "Bore Butter" in the store yesterday,but I just figured it was a bore cleaner.

 

[deermanok]

Our muzzleloader season runs for 13 days in my state. There have been times where I've left my rifle loaded for maybe a week or so. As long as there is no chance of any moisture getting into the barrel, you'll be OK otherwise I'd opt for a fresh load for the next day's hunt.

 

[Zeb]

We have a longer regular muzzle loader season in the middle of December here in West Virginia, but this "Mountaineer Heritage season" is only for flint lock,and side lock percussion rifles,as well as long bows,and non compound recurves.I like the timing because I have not killed a deer since late November,and was sick of dealing with deer,but now I have the itch again to see if I can get another decent one.

 

[azmntman]

We have a longer regular muzzle loader season in the middle of December here in West Virginia, but this "Mountaineer Heritage season" is only for flint lock,and side lock percussion rifles,as well as long bows,and non compound recurves.I like the timing because I have not killed a deer since late November,and was sick of dealing with deer,but now I have the itch again to see if I can get another decent one.

A wise ol man (me) once said "a trophy deer is a deer in the freezer". Spikes n Does sure do eat good. Course here in AZ it's one deer per calander year, none of that over the counter shoot 2 bucks n 5 does stuff. Lord help me if I ever lived in a state like that! I's never eat beef again!

 

[Black Hand]

The reason I asked about how long one could be kept loaded without damage is because I plan to be hunting with it the next few evenings,and was wondering if I could just store it loaded if I don't take a shot for a couple days.This new "Heritage season" starts tomorrow, and runs thru Sunday.I saw the "Bore Butter" in the store yesterday,but I just figured it was a bore cleaner.

If you have not shot and reloaded, a muzzleloader can be left loaded indefinitely. That said, loaded with real Black Powder. Not certain what the shelf-life of Pyrodex might be, but you can leave it loaded for some time regardless (weeks/months).

 

[Zeb]

The deer are pretty thick here in Jackson Co.W.Va,but not so thick in some of the southern counties.I usually kill about three per year these days,but I used to kill more.I like to kill them,but hate what comes afterwards. We give as much away as we keep.

 

[Dr5x]

I NEVER THOUGHT OF THERE BEING A CORROSIVE EFFECT FROM UNFIRED BLACK POWDER OR PYRODEX.
I ALWAYS THE CORROSIVE ELEMENT TO ENTER THE PICTURE WHEN THE RESIDUE OF THE BP OR PYRODWX WS LEFT IN THE BARREL AFTER FIRING.


I BELIEVE IF THE POWDER CHARGES RE KEPT DRY IN THE BREECH, THE RIFLE COULD BE LEFT LOADED FOR SOME TIME.

DUTCH SCHOULTZ

I bought a used CVA Frontier the day before yesterday. I bought it on a whim after hearing a guy advertise it on "Swap and Shop" which is a local morning radio show.I probably paid too much for it at $180.The gun looks great,and has a good bore,and plenty of brass on it,and has a nice carving of a Bison on the stock.I got about 20 balls,a starter,and some of that bed ticking patch material,and a can of #11primers,and a jug of Pyrodex.I bought some of them Pennsylvania conical bullets on sale as well.I went out to the farm to shoot it yesterday, and was surprised at the way the powder looked.It has a price tag of $16 on it,so I assume it is old.Is it supposed to be a medium gray color, and the consistency of crumbled dry dirt?.I loaded it up with 70 gr.and one of the Pennsylvania bullets,and when went to put my cap on the nipple it didn't want to go.I pushed it on anyways, and it didn't go off. I tried it again, and still it would not fire I put another primer on, and with the muzzle in a safe direction I put another cap on, and shoved it on the nipple with the bullet starter.I had to shove it hard.I tried it and the gun went off.I tried a few more times,and had mixed results.I noticed that the nipple on the gun is chrome color, which I found odd but I just figured It was a replacement. I came to the conclusion that the guy I got it from probably never shot it,or thought it didn't function right.I assume the nipple was for a bigger cap.I took the nipple off,and filed it down,and the caps go on with hard finger pressure,and I fired 6 shots with no misfires.I noticed the flat pin that holds the stock on the barrel fits pretty loosely ,and I would hate to lose it.Is there a way to prevent the pin from backing out?.Should that bracket that dovetails into the barrel that the pin goes through mate so loose to the barrel that it falls out without the stock being on,or should it fit tight like a dovetail sight?.I was pleased enough with the accuracy of the gun,and feel that with some practice, and load tuning it will make a pretty good shooter.I never loaded any balls in it yet,but I plan to.I watch videos on YouTube,and most people don't seen to lube their patch.Why is this? Does the patch need lubed?,and if it does would sizing wax be a good lube?What is good lube? I know I have asked a lot of questions, so this is the last one for now.How long can you leave a rifle loaded with Pyrodex without risking corrosion?..Thanks

 

[Zeb]

I NEVER THOUGHT OF THERE BEING A CORROSIVE EFFECT FROM UNFIRED BLACK POWDER OR PYRODEX.
I ALWAYS THE CORROSIVE ELEMENT TO ENTER THE PICTURE WHEN THE RESIDUE OF THE BP OR PYRODWX WS LEFT IN THE BARREL AFTER FIRING.


I BELIEVE IF THE POWDER CHARGES RE KEPT DRY IN THE BREECH, THE RIFLE COULD BE LEFT LOADED FOR SOME TIME.

DUTCH SCHOULTZ

I thank you all for your valuable knowledge. I am going to get some hunting in this evening,and will just leave it loaded in the barn.Would it be wise to stand it up barrel down? I assume I should replace the cap with a fresh one before hunting with it again .

 

[bang]

I bought a used CVA Frontier the day before yesterday. I bought it on a whim after hearing a guy advertise it on "Swap and Shop" which is a local morning radio show.I probably paid too much for it at $180.The gun looks great,and has a good bore,and plenty of brass on it,and has a nice carving of a Bison on the stock.I got about 20 balls,a starter,and some of that bed ticking patch material,and a can of #11primers,and a jug of Pyrodex.I bought some of them Pennsylvania conical bullets on sale as well.I went out to the farm to shoot it yesterday, and was surprised at the way the powder looked.It has a price tag of $16 on it,so I assume it is old.Is it supposed to be a medium gray color, and the consistency of crumbled dry dirt?.I loaded it up with 70 gr.and one of the Pennsylvania bullets,and when went to put my cap on the nipple it didn't want to go.I pushed it on anyways, and it didn't go off. I tried it again, and still it would not fire I put another primer on, and with the muzzle in a safe direction I put another cap on, and shoved it on the nipple with the bullet starter.I had to shove it hard.I tried it and the gun went off.I tried a few more times,and had mixed results.I noticed that the nipple on the gun is chrome color, which I found odd but I just figured It was a replacement. I came to the conclusion that the guy I got it from probably never shot it,or thought it didn't function right.I assume the nipple was for a bigger cap.I took the nipple off,and filed it down,and the caps go on with hard finger pressure,and I fired 6 shots with no misfires.I noticed the flat pin that holds the stock on the barrel fits pretty loosely ,and I would hate to lose it.Is there a way to prevent the pin from backing out?.Should that bracket that dovetails into the barrel that the pin goes through mate so loose to the barrel that it falls out without the stock being on,or should it fit tight like a dovetail sight?.I was pleased enough with the accuracy of the gun,and feel that with some practice, and load tuning it will make a pretty good shooter.I never loaded any balls in it yet,but I plan to.I watch videos on YouTube,and most people don't seen to lube their patch.Why is this? Does the patch need lubed?,and if it does would sizing wax be a good lube?What is good lube? I know I have asked a lot of questions, so this is the last one for now.How long can you leave a rifle loaded with Pyrodex without risking corrosion?..Thanks

You did good on price.
Kudos on dressing the nipple. Most newbies would be stuck.
Here's a good formula for figuring decent safe average powder load:
Bore radius sqd x 3.1416 x barrel length x 15.72. Round to nearest whole number. My personal feeling is to not go more than 15% either way from that. Some choose to shoot heavy loads above that but my 44 years experience has shown grouping is not necessarily achived by more. The best shooting is proper projectile fit, consistant flight line and sighting placement to target.
Lube on patch? Yes
I've used wax and veg oil melted together for years. It's inexpensive, easy to make and in right consistency can be dispensed with a cooking syringe, real good for sealing chambers on revolvers. I melt some then put my patches in 1/2- 3/4 in stacks then hold the stack with tongs and soak them. Ring out then put on plate to cool.
Mic the bottom of lands in barrel. Subtract 0.010 or 0.018 patch thickness to get available ball diameter with correlated patch. May be some difference on patch depending on available ball dia..
Been shooting pyrodex for almost forever. My preference is pyro "P" in all I shoot. May not be what others like but I've worked out the loads for my preferences. Solves keeping multiple grades and in a few cases eliminated periodic hesitations. But that's me.
Conicals are ok but get a loading jag for ramrod that fits shape of top of bullet. This will help to set it straight in bore.
If you mold your own always use pure lead.
Barrel pin, yes bend slightly and install bend down but only enough to secure by thumb push at most. Tighten dove tail but reinstall fitting as straight in as possible. Crooked installation quick way to loose fit.
Cleaning. I use water and soap. Mix you up a 2 liter bottle and it will last. If I've done a lot of shooting I pour a required amount in a bottle, insert snug cleaning patch on rod in bore, put hose on nipple then use patch on rod to pull cleaner into barrel. Let sit a few then push fluid back out. Do this several times then dry patch finish to very light oil till next shoot.