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21 inch barrel?

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Zonie

Moderator Emeritus In Remembrance
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I’m in the process of reading “GUNS ON THE EARLY FRONTIERS- From Colonial Times to the Years of the Western Fur Trade” by Carl P. Russell, Dover edition 2005.
The original book has a copyright of 1957.

In the footnotes section on page 295, footnote # 17 there is some discussion of the Trade Guns.

Quoting the text:

“...As early as 1689, Lahontan, who had for several years traveled among the Indians of the Great Lakes region, in the Illinois country, and along the upper reaches of the Mississippi, reported that the short and light fusee was the favorite of the red man. In his list of recommended items for the French trade in Canada he emphasized the importance of this type of gun.
That the longer barrels (50-60 inches) had been abandoned by the English traders is evidenced by the invoices of the Hudson’s Bay Co. During the century following Labontan’s published comment. Trade muskets seldom exceeded 4 ft. in total length, with barrels 33 in., long.
In 1748, English guns having 27-in and 33-in. As well as 21-in. Barrels were distributed from Hudson’s Bay Co. Posts in the north country.
At York Factory, muskets of all three lengths were sold for 14 beavers each.
At Moose River and Albany (James Bay), the price was 10 beavers for the gun with 21-in. Barrel, 11 beavers for the intermediate length, and 12 for the 4-ft. gun (33-in. Barrel)....”

This brings up my question.

How many of you folks are using the 10 beaver trade gun with the short 21 inch long barrel?

21 inch barrel? That almost sounds like a factory made “Can** gun”.
Oops, I can't say that word around here. :grin:
 
There are those who will tell you "it ain't so" and that short barrels are a 20th century fad.
 
Oh Happy Day, Documentation on a Hudson's Bay 21" barrel trade gun! :) Oh Joy, Rapture! Among the junque I've accumulated from Yard sales and trades is a 21" (no kidding) oct. to round 62 cal. lathe turned, no wedding band, smoothbore Green Mountain barrel just waiting to be made into a short Trade or Blanket gun. :) Thanks Zonie, :thumbsup: Tree.
 
Happy to give you some ammunition for your shorty.

I'm just glad to hear you aren't considering making a "Cano* gun". Woops, I almost said it again didn't I? :rotf:
 
OMG I cant believe the fad for making non-HC/PC guns and fantise pieces started way back then. You know if those people wanted to live back then they should have done a better job of being HC :haha:
 
Count me in the 11 bev. group. this one is 26" and a HC 24 bore.... :haha: ...Tom

click to see more.
 
Long as I've been around, the shorties have been written off by detractors as examples of shortening following barrel bursts and such. Ha!

Wonder which molehill is next up for lofty ascents. :rotf:
 
'nother SLING?

Wait, let me try!

"[Las Vegas] is long way from Virginney..."

:rotf:

And actually it wasn't that far... The self proclaimed "experts" should know that Virginia arguably went as far North as through the Great Lakes, where they could launch their leaky Birch Bark canoe, during most of the 1700's.

:shake:
 
Hudson's Bay is long way from Virginney.........

And England, where the trade muskets for North America were made is even farther away....and this reference only speaks about the "upper reaches of the Mississippi and the Illinois country"...


Still...I think the argument has been that such short barrels were " aftermarket " modifications, probably due to damage and that the original guns coming from England were not made that short, No? :confused:

:hmm:

NOW there is a primary source that says there were three sizes coming out of England as early as 1748, short, medium, and long..., and even gives prices for such. Unless one is going to argue that these were solely made for the HB company, and available nowhere else but from their posts, there is an opening into what we thought was available in English trade guns...possibly available anywhere English trade guns were sold. :shocked2:

Another Question..., is what made some of the customers spend two extra beaver pelts to get the 33" barrel, OR was it simply a case of when the shorter barreled gun inventory ran out... the next buyer was forced to spend more and got a longer barrelled gun???

LD
 
Sir, forgive my ignorance and humor me by giving a short explanation. What is a "Can----" gun, and is it something of modern creation? Thank you all for helping a modern gun shooter learn about and enjoy the black powder guns. The handguns, smooth bores, and rifles y'all have enjoyed for years have been foreign to most of the shooting world. Y'all have been kind to this old redneck with his questions. Thank you all. FB
 
Zonie said:
I’m in the process of reading “GUNS ON THE EARLY FRONTIERS- From Colonial Times to the Years of the Western Fur Trade” by Carl P. Russell, Dover edition 2005.
The original book has a copyright of 1957.

In the footnotes section on page 295, footnote # 17 there is some discussion of the Trade Guns.

Quoting the text:

“...As early as 1689, Lahontan, who had for several years traveled among the Indians of the Great Lakes region, in the Illinois country, and along the upper reaches of the Mississippi, reported that the short and light fusee was the favorite of the red man. In his list of recommended items for the French trade in Canada he emphasized the importance of this type of gun.
That the longer barrels (50-60 inches) had been abandoned by the English traders is evidenced by the invoices of the Hudson’s Bay Co. During the century following Labontan’s published comment. Trade muskets seldom exceeded 4 ft. in total length, with barrels 33 in., long.
In 1748, English guns having 27-in and 33-in. As well as 21-in. Barrels were distributed from Hudson’s Bay Co. Posts in the north country.
At York Factory, muskets of all three lengths were sold for 14 beavers each.
At Moose River and Albany (James Bay), the price was 10 beavers for the gun with 21-in. Barrel, 11 beavers for the intermediate length, and 12 for the 4-ft. gun (33-in. Barrel)....”

This brings up my question.

How many of you folks are using the 10 beaver trade gun with the short 21 inch long barrel?

21 inch barrel? That almost sounds like a factory made “Can** gun”.
Oops, I can't say that word around here. :grin:

Very interesting Zonie, and it may be accurate for that one area at that particular time. But by making it a blanket that covers all Native Americans in all areas and all times, you fall into the same trap that Mr. Russell fell into almost 60 years ago when research on the topic was only in it's infancy, there have been many more facts come to light since then. Did anyone at the time Russell wrote his (fairly) excellent book look at the fact that Sir William Johnson, Superintendent of Indian Affairs (appointed by the Royal Governor of New York in 1744) ordered large numbers of trade guns from Birmingham and London makers with 48 inch barrels - apparently the preferred length - for his Six Nation customers as well as white buyers? The French traders operating in competition with Sir William also imported huge numbers of long barreled trade guns made in France, some of which still exist in Canada and the northern US.

Examples go on and on but as modern shooters/users, buy the length that you prefer, right or wrong, for the "Canoe gun" lovers out there shorties are fine as long as you don't mind having an example that may or may not be historically accurate as a "new" gun. (And yes, I did type that out, you may give me a :slap: ).
 
Samuel Hearne, A Journey to the Northern Ocean

Describing how Indians in the Hudson Bay area ran moose to ground by stripping off all unnecessary clothing and gear and chasing them on foot for 2-3 days, he said:

1772 "...but I never knew any of them take a gun unless such as had been blown or bursted, and the barrel cut quite short,..."

It seems logical to assume no factory-made short barrel guns were available to them.

Spence
 
Could it be that in an age of little or no communication different authors had different experiences and that is what we are reading?

Do we need to really find evidence. Some found short barrels made so or other....short barrels were employed just the same....here or there!

Do differing experiences have to always form two camps....does it really really matter?

All this history is fascinating, but I see no need to pantie twist over it :idunno: (not you Spence).

B.
 
Would you have the period source of the information provided in Russell's footnote?

Zonie said:
I’m in the process of reading “GUNS ON THE EARLY FRONTIERS- From Colonial Times to the Years of the Western Fur Trade” by Carl P. Russell, Dover edition 2005.
The original book has a copyright of 1957.

In the footnotes section on page 295, footnote # 17 there is some discussion of the Trade Guns.

Quoting the text:

“...As early as 1689, Lahontan, who had for several years traveled among the Indians of the Great Lakes region, in the Illinois country, and along the upper reaches of the Mississippi, reported that the short and light fusee was the favorite of the red man. In his list of recommended items for the French trade in Canada he emphasized the importance of this type of gun.
That the longer barrels (50-60 inches) had been abandoned by the English traders is evidenced by the invoices of the Hudson’s Bay Co. During the century following Labontan’s published comment. Trade muskets seldom exceeded 4 ft. in total length, with barrels 33 in., long.
In 1748, English guns having 27-in and 33-in. As well as 21-in. Barrels were distributed from Hudson’s Bay Co. Posts in the north country.
At York Factory, muskets of all three lengths were sold for 14 beavers each.
At Moose River and Albany (James Bay), the price was 10 beavers for the gun with 21-in. Barrel, 11 beavers for the intermediate length, and 12 for the 4-ft. gun (33-in. Barrel)....”

This brings up my question.

How many of you folks are using the 10 beaver trade gun with the short 21 inch long barrel?

21 inch barrel? That almost sounds like a factory made “Can** gun”.
Oops, I can't say that word around here. :grin:
 
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