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cam98k

32 Cal.
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
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Are these loads only used in Smooth Bore Muskets?
Is the Ball Patched and then the Buck Shot put
on top of it? Patch over the Top of Buck Shot?
Any Info on How it is Done? Tried Search but no Luck.Would like to try Load in .58 3 Band Endfield,
or .50 Lyman Trade Rifle.
Regards,Tony.
 
I don't know how it would be done loose, but during the early days of the Civil War buck and ball was issued in paper cartridges.

It was 3 buckshot pellets in front of a round ball. It was loaded the same way as any other paper cartridge, tear off the bottom, pour the powder, and then ram the rest home.

As far as I know, it was only used in smoothbore muskets, when rifled muskets came into general use, it was only minié loads that were issued.
 
To the best of my knowledge buck & ball was only used in smoothbores.

To me it makes sense because loading this in a rifle would produce the same effects as loading shot in a rifled barrel.

The rifling imparts a spin to the projectiles and this spin produces centrifugal forces that want to throw objects outwards as soon as they leave the bore.

Even with a slow twist barrel like a 1:60 the speed that the projectiles are spinning is quite impressive.

For instance, at only 1200 feet per second a 1:60 twist barrel will spin the bullet at 14,400 RPM.

Another reason shooting buck & ball in a rifled barrel might not be such a good idea is the small loose balls if left unpatched will be leaving pieces of lead stuck to the rifling grooves.
Patching the two, three or four smaller balls won't work either because they will not compress the patch into the rifling.
In this condition when the gun is fired the cloth patch will quickly shred, once again allowing the lead balls to contact the bore.

At least that's the way I see it.

By the way, in a war time situation such as the Civil War where killing and maiming was the goal, the buck & ball was a devastating load in the 69 cal. 1842 Springfield smoothbore.
 
Thanks very much for the Info,
Puts a Smooth Bore on the Future Agenda.
Regards,Tony.
 
You need a bore large enough to take three buckshot side by side over the ball. These are military loads and generally useless or illegal for hunting. A bore smaller than .69" is going to make it difficult to get the buckshot to seat properly. These loads were usually made up as cartridges to keep the loading time down to a reasonable level.
 
Russ T Frizzen,

Is there a specific bore size and buckshot size you could recommend? I can't find any info on specifics.
 
jordanka16 said:
Russ T Frizzen,

Is there a specific bore size and buckshot size you could recommend? I can't find any info on specifics.

The bore size of the typical musket is correct.
These will use "0" or "00" buck.

The US Army used mostly buck and ball cartridges with the SB musket since it gave better hit probability than a single ball.

Dan
 
Cam98K: Carl P. Russell in his first book "Guns on the Early Frontier" gives a little information. Apparently the cartridges were formed around a wood dowel. After the paper was wrapped the dowel was pulled back a little and the end crunched up and tied with two half hitches of linen thread. The ball was then rammed into the closed end of the paper tube. The paper behind the ball was then partially tied again, restricting the area about 50% and then the powder charge poured in and the open end folded and then folded again.
Now...this is what surprised me. In the Civil War the base of the paper cartridge was torn open with the teeth, the powder poured in the muzzle and then the minnie bullet REMOVED from the paper and rammed down the bore BUT in the Revolutionary War Russell says the ball was not a true 69 caliber like the bore, the ball was 65 caliber so that there would be enough room for the paper. I never knew that! So it sounds like to me the base was ripped open and the powder poured down the bore and then the remaining cartridge, paper and all rammed down the bore. If it was buck and ball, the two buck shot just went in ahead of the ball. This would make the load almost a paper patched load. In any event if anyone else has information on this- I'd be interested in knowing for sure if that was the procedure.
 
This was done with smoothbores right through their final use in the Civil War. Usually there were three buckshot in a buck and ball load. Rifle-muskets had the Minie loaded naked.
 
Yup. Particularly in the early days. The sweet old '42 musket was very effective with this load. I seem to recall that a New York Irish Brigade was quite fond of the combination.
 
Russ T. Frizzen: if you haven't read the Carl P. Russell book, Guns on the Early Frontier, there are used copies floating around for about $6.00 and although a lot of the information is the same as elsewhere the footnotes are really good- maybe 30 pages of them with a lot of clues on more things to research.
 
The first couple of years of the Civil War, the government still had smoothbore muskets in its inventories, so they were issued to state militias, for instance. Rifles existed, but since it was a relatively New Technology for the military, they didn't have anywhere near as many as they needed.

The Southern States were even in worse shape- and eventually were importing rifled guns from England and France, and eastern European countries. For the first couple of years, where The South won most of the battles, their soldiers commandeered the guns of Yankee prisoners, and wounded or dead on the battlefield, along with any ammo. Raiders, like John Moseby, were sent across Northern lines specifically to capture and return to Southern forces any munitions, guns, powder, flints, caps, etc. that his men could seize. Moseby was active in both Kentucky, and S. Ohio, and what is now West Virginia.

For those reasons, Buck and Ball loads, in smoothbores were used often on the early battlefields. later, as these guns were replaced by rifles, single projectile loads were used almost exclusively by Northern forces, while the South still was " Making do", with whatever guns their men could acquire, or already had.

At Gettysburg, where the battle was fought in July(1-3), 1863, there is very little archeological evidence that Northern forces used Buck and Ball. There is the barest of evidence that Southern troops were still using smoothbores, and round balls. Whether they were using buck and ball is even harder to confirm, because the buck shot is so small, and difficult to age properly if found. :hmm:
 
Paul,
Small point of correction, you are refering to Gen. John Morgan; Col. John Moseby was located in the Shenendoah Valley region of Virginia. Out here in the Indian Territory the smooth bore was used later by the Confederate forces, due to supply problems which included diversion of supply trains to be used by Arkansas and Texas troops.

Robert
 
There were plenty of double barreled, and single barrel shotguns, and fowlers being used by Confederate troops in Virginia, too. Particularly, the cavalry units had men who preferred to carry and shoot a shotgun at charging Federal Cavalry units. You can imagine the chaos created by hitting both horses and men in the front ranks with a load or two of shot!

As to John S. Mosby, Lt. Colonel in the 43rd Battalion, Virginia Cavalry, Partisan Rangers, he formed the Unit in January, 1963, after his release, in a prisoner Exchange, from a Union Prison, where he was able to observe a build up of ships bringing re-inforcements to Union forces in N. Virginia. On his release, he is reported to have gone to Gen. Robert E. Lee, and delivered that bit of intelligence, which prompted the forming of the Rangers. He operated mostly in N. Virginia, with his men, working under JEB Stuart.

There are historical reports of him raiding homes as far west as Ohio, and into Pennsylvania, but I have never had much faith in those accounts. There were lots of groups and loose units that conducted such raids throughout the border states, and Newspapers often credited the " Grey Ghost" for all such actions, whether he was involved or not. Newspapers then were not much different than Mainstream Media today: The Truth is not as important as selling NEWS!

When you read histories written from Mosby's own statements, its seems clear he joined the war to defend Virginia, and most, if not all, his actions occurred within the State of Virginia. I am not sure, without consulting maps, if any of his raids even entered what is now West Virginia.

You are probably correct in my confusion with General John Hunt Morgan, who did lead Raids into the border states, including Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio, during that war. My apologies to all. :bow: :thumbsup:
 
paulvallandigham said:
There were plenty of double barreled, and single barrel shotguns, and fowlers being used by Confederate troops in Virginia, too. Particularly, the cavalry units had men who preferred to carry and shoot a shotgun at charging Federal Cavalry units.

And flintlock pistols loaded with buck :thumbsup:
 
Paul,
Not to be picky but I think you meant to say that Mosby formed his battalian in "1863".
Mark
 
And yes it was Gen. John H. Morgan and his 2nd kentucky regiment who raided into Indiana and Ohio. I am a member of a 2nd. Kentucky reenactment unit. We are one of the artillery units. Our Unit is closest to Lawrence's Battery that was attched to Morgans command since we use Mt. Howitzers instead of the Parrotts. Our preferred hand weapons are pistols, shotguns, and short carbines which is period correct for that unit. Kentucky battles are not considered raids due to Morgan and his unit, most of all whom lived in the state- how can you raid somewhere thats really your home? I would consider more of a defense of your home than a raid. It's no different than Lee fighting in Virginia.
 
Histories are written by the victors, and their choice of language is always going to produce victims, and attackers. The use of " raids" was done as much to put the fear or God into Northern residents living along the OHIO river, where both Southern Sympathizers, and Union loyalists lived, as well as to brand the Southern soldiers who did cross the river to Attack Union positions and supply trains in Indiana and Ohio as " criminals". Remember, that the Unionists considered Secessionists " Traitors", and wanted to hang all of them. Lincoln would have none of it, and was responsible for treating captured Confederate Soldiers as Prisoners of War, and as humanely as possible. Unionists who ran the prison camps, who felt differently, managed to conceal from Lincoln the amount of deaths, disease, and starvation going on in Northern Prison camps. That is why camps in his own State of Illinois, at Rock Island, and North of Chicago, at " Camp Douglas", saw so many confederate deaths- with poor records showing much fewer deaths than actually occurred. There was cruelty on both sides of the conflict, of course. But, Northern newspaper, those that supported the war, represented people who wanted to not only to crush the Confederacy, but to make the South pay. Edwin Stanton, the Secretary of War, was the " leader " of this faction.

When Lincoln was assassinated, the South lost its best friend, and only hope for a better reconciliation. Instead, they got Stanton, who imposed harsh terms and conditions, and almost succeeded in getting Congress to back his wishes to hang all the Confederate leaders. The public reaction to the hanging of Mary Surratt destroyed what support he had, and those leaders were released from custody. Congress lost its stomach for punishing Americans. Andrew Johnson, coming from a Border State, also helped to curb the lust for revenge. It was his opposition to Stanton that was behind the move to remove him from the Presidency by Impeachment.

Technically, incursions into Northern states can be labeled " raids". Efforts of Union forces to fight battles in Southern States were also " raids", but on a much larger scale.

I think the common understanding of the term is that a raid is a lightly composed force of enemy soldiers, that strikes quickly and then withdraws, rather than trying to hold ground. Battles tend to be larger manned events, that result in someone holding the ground and the survivors of the enemy retreating and giving up ground.

Just don't expect Journalists- then or now- to be the keepers of the English Language. They need to sell newspaper and Ad time. They live on Sensationalism, not accuracy in use of language. Only lawyers have a need to insure that language means the same 100 years from now that it means today, and its the only profession that works hard to protect the meaning and usage of words as language. ( How can a lawyer write a will, that may not be entirely used for more than several generations to settle the distribution of all the property in an estate, if he can't be assured that what he writes NOW will be understood and interpreted by future courts, and lawyers, in the same way??)

I don't want to start a war with Journalists, writers, English Teachers, musicians and composers, or anyone else who uses language in their business. Other professions have other ethics, and other goals for the use of words. Within their sense of ethics, what they do is "right". Americans create and add to the lexicon every year hundreds of words. Its one of the great attributes of the English Language that is NOT shared by other languages in the world, and it is why English has become a dominant language for communication around the world.

Because of lawyer's concerns about how language will be understood in the future, large Wills, with Trusts, and future interests, written today, often include a Glossary of terms, giving the definition of terms used, with instructions that the definitions of the words listed in the glossary shall be used in determining the original intent of the Testator( writer of the will.)

This same kind of thing is also seen in substantial Contracts, particularly if they involved the Government as a party. The purpose is to protect private businesses from The Government changing the "rules " during the performance of a contract, and then using its considerable financial resources to bankrupt the private business if it dares to contest the Government's " Interpretation " in Court. Glossaries of terms often make the difference between a company making a profit, or going under. :hatsoff:
 
Muzzleloader magazine had a story about shooting buck and ball loads in the July/August 2002 issue.
 
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