You flinch, I flinch...

[George]

There have been some recent interesting discussions about speed in our shooting, speed of 4F vs 3F for priming, speed of large touchholes vs small ones, speed of percussion locks vs flintlocks. That got me to thinking about something which I believe to be true, but which many people assume isn’t. It’s the famous flintlock flinch”¦. because of this....



It can be a serious problem, especially for people new to flintlocks, but it can also be a persistent one for more experienced shooters. From many related discussions over the years I gather that most shooters believe the flinch is a reaction to the flash of the pan right in front of their eyes, as though they are dodging it.

Is that what really happens? There are some numbers which have been generated by various people over the years while testing locks, powders flints, etc. which seem to indicate that a flintlock fires the pan powder in about .04 to .05 second. That’s 40 to 50 milliseconds, thousandths of a second.

Another interesting number is the fastest possible human reaction time, the time it takes a person to respond to any kind of outside stimulus. That’s .11 second. That’s 110 milliseconds.

So, if the pan fires in 40 milliseconds and it takes you more than 110 milliseconds to dodge, there seems to be an inescapable conclusion, flinching which causes you to miss the shot cannot be a reaction to the pan flash. The ball will be well out of the barrel before you can move. If your flinch is making you miss, you have to be starting it before the hammer starts to move or it will be all over before you can move the barrel.

So, flinching is a problem of anticipating the flash and dodging before it even happens. What we all need is to be trained like a good birddog to ”˜stand steady to shot’. :haha:

Spence

 

[Black Hand]

I also believe part of the issue could be our natural curiosity - the urge to look for our bullet hole causes us to not follow through properly. As you said - it is a matter of training ourselves to stand fast...

 

[Okie Hog]

Years ago i fired rock locks. At the time i did not wear glasses. At the advice of another shooter i started wearing shooting glasses: My flinch went away.

 

[coloradoclyde]

There are many various reflexes that can occur simultaneously during a startle response. The fastest reflex recorded in humans happens within the masseter muscle or jaw muscle. The reflex was measured by electromyography which records the electrical activitiy during movement of the muscles. This also showed the latency response or the delay between the stimulus and the response. Recorded was found to be about 14 milliseconds.

The "Jaw" muscle rests against the cheek piece when shooting....movement of the jaw muscle will move the butt stock instantaneously, moving the muzzle at a comparatively exaggerated degree. This will throw off your aim. It does not however affect everyone equally...but it is a major factor for some.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I have often wondered if it is the break of the trigger that initiates a flinch instead of the flash in the pan..... :hmm:
studies that have been done indicate that sound causes more people to flinch.....So I also can't help but wonder if the "cachunk" causes the flinch ahead of the flash.....Sound travels from the lock to the ear in 9/10 of a millisecond.

 

[Silky921]

The "natural curiosity" of peeking to see the shot was one mistake I used to catch myself doing. And through some recognition and practice I was able to fix it.

Also, I think this world where it's everything now, sped up, and need for instant results was a big part of why I was making the mistake. A major reason now I enjoy flintlocks is to slow down and enjoy the here and now.

 

[wulf]

Good point. Lock jar is definately a contributer.

Wulf

 

[mooman76]

I'm sure there is more than one reason for developing the flinch. Centerfire shooter get it to and they here no flash. Whether it's the kick of the gun, flash, bang or whatever, it becomes a habit of anticipating the shot and after awhile and hard to break too.

Somewhere along the line I picked up the habit of closing my eyes a split second before firing. I do wear glasses too. I think I picked it up from debris hitting me in the face when firing. I still shoot good even though I close my eyes for that split second. I think I concentrate a little more to hold still that split second. Not in all a bad thing I guess.

Anyway what many do is go back to shooting something like a 22 to settle themselves down until that got the habit of holding still again. In our cases we could shoot something like a light loaded 32 cap lock if we have one.

 

[Mean Gene]

I've never shot a flintlock, but with a flash like that I would probably do more than just flinch.

I have noticed when I have had misfires that I flinch in anticipation of the shot that never occurred, so it doesn't just apply to people using flinters.

It may even be just a normal unconscious human reaction.

 

[sidelock]

I don't flinch !!!!!!!! after perhaps over 1/2 million shots in my life time I don't flinch.

 

[RADeO]

I've never shot a flintlock, but with a flash like that I would probably do more than just flinch.

I'd bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut that you would never see the pan flash in daylight if your eyes were focused on the sights. :grin: I have shot flintlocks for a while and have never seen it myself nor have others whom have never shot a muzzle loader, when given a chance to shoot mine.

Agree with your other statements.

 

[rushlake1]

Without eye wear I'd be blinking like a light house.
Ditto shooting persuction....
Amazing what the lenses look like after. :shocked2:

Took me six months to train my eye to ignore the pan flash...long learning curve here.

You know you "won" when they clover leaf...
Thanks for the reminder Spence...

 

[ike]

Very interesting discussion. I shoot flint lock a lot. Most of the time I can call my shot. I mean that I know where the front sight was on the target when the gun fires. I do not always see or remember seeing the flash in the pan but I do see the flash from the barrel on low light days. I have found that the position of my finger on the trigger makes a huge difference. If my finger is just on the trigger I shoot down and to the left. I am left handed. When my finger is in the middle or almost to the first joint I pull straight back. Better accuracy. I cannot hold steady on the target so I come up to the bull from under the bull and hope my trigger pull matches the sight crossing the bull. I used to flinch but the gun going off should be a surprise and the way I shoot now I do not flinch very often. I have had the good fortune of having a professional and very good muzzle loader shooter coach me. I owe a lot to him.

 

[Vaino]

Flinching is an anticipation of the gun going off and I agree w/ Colorado Clyde that it happens when the trigger is being pulled.

First off...shooting more can correct flinching, but seeing it's mental, something has to be done w/ this aspect.

My nephew was a flincher because when pulling the trigger, he wasn't concentrating on keeping the sights on the target. MY advice to him....at this point in your life you have only one thing to do.....concentrate on keeping the sights on the target. Concentrating and a lot more shooting did the trick.

Many CF shooters flinch when pulling the trigger in anticipation of the recoil.....when I was sighting in rifles during our club's "Deer Clinic", I would watch when the flinch occurred and it was when pulling the trigger.

Many shooters who flinch have lighter recoiling cals. like .270s...this cal. seems to be their favorite.

As far as flinching when shooting a flintlock, the flinch occurs when pulling the trigger also and the flash is too late to cause a flinch. Most MLers "kick" a lot less than most CFs, so unless it's a holdover from their CF shooting, then it's a mental anticipation of the gun firing but when the trigger is being pulled.

Muffling the gun's report w/ some sort of ear protection and wearing eye protection both help......Fred

 

[Artificer]

One thing I learned when I was 10 or 11 and when hunting with a shotgun on rapidly moving targets, was I often did not consciously hear the shot or felt the recoil at all or as more of an afterthought. This even when hunting with no ear protection. Later on I learned this was due to concentrating so much on aiming and hitting the target. This even when a few times I did not shoulder the gun securely and got harder felt recoil after the shot.

The most unusual case of that was one time I was crossing over the top of a barb wire fence and a covey of Quail decided that was the exact time to "explode" into flight. I was over the top of the top barb wire strand with one leg on each side. Without consciously thinking, I aimed, fired and a Quail tumbled. Only THEN did something HURT real bad on the thigh of my left leg. I looked down and saw the shot had impaled my thigh on a barb, but I had not noticed it until after seeing the Quail tumble and marking in my mind where it landed. (Yeah, I know a really dumb and unsafe time to take a shot and I made sure I never did that again! :redface: )

One time at a friend's 4th of July party, we had previously decided to bring our Flintlock Muskets and shoot them with BLANK loads after it got dark. This was in the country and we made sure not to point it at something that could be hurt even when we were only using blanks. Though dark, there was a partial moon, so I could aim at a tree branch. I used one of my 120 grains of FFFg powder blanks we used in reenacting. I don't even remember the flash from the pan, though I did notice how the bore lit up the night sky while I was still concentrating on aiming at the tree branch.

Gus

 

[jfaldo]

If you shoot in enough shoots where there are multiple people shooting you will eventually see more than one shooter do this. They will forget to cock the hammer on their rifle and will set the trigger. Upon firing only the set trigger some of the gyrations you see can be quite comical. The gun did not fire and there was no flash of any sort. I would guess that near 100% of all flinching is in anticipation of what's going to happen and not what actually does. Moral of the story is make sure you tell your shooting partner to cock the hammer on his or her gun :slap:

 

[George]

If you are lucky enough to have a friend capable of it, a good way to learn not to flinch is to have him load the gun for you, but not let you know if he really loaded it or only put in prime. You may see yourself doing some impressive gymnastics, and knowing you are doing that can be a big help.

Spence

 

[coloradoclyde]

Most of the time I can call my shot. I mean that I know where the front sight was on the target when the gun fires.

Same here!.....
It is part of what we call the "zone". When you are in the "zone" you become hyper focused....Time seems to slow down, you can see bullets travel through the air,...wind, noise, rain and other external stimuli disappear.

Shooting is 99% mental.

 

[coloradoclyde]

If you are lucky enough to have a friend capable of it, a good way to learn not to flinch is to have him load the gun for you, but not let you know if he really loaded it or only put in prime. You may see yourself doing some impressive gymnastics, and knowing you are doing that can be a big help.

Spence

This is a common training technique....But if you know it is being done, then the seed for a flinch of anticipation has been sown.

 

[Billnpatti]

Spence, I believe you were spot on when you said:
"So, flinching is a problem of anticipating the flash and dodging before it even happens."
So many times I have seen a flinch when a person is shooting a caplock that failed to fire for some reason. No flash, no smoke, nothing but pure anticipation of the noise and recoil. Flinch is the anticipation of the shot, not a reaction to it. I don't know about others but I never see the pan flash when I am shooting a flintlock. For me, the only difference between firing one of my flintlocks and one of my caplocks is the smoke from the pan after the shot, not at the time of the shot. I also have to be aware not to fire if another shooter steps up beside me on my right side. But, I can flinch just as well with a caplock as I can with a flintlock. 'Tain't reaction to the shot, it's anticipation of the shot. Or so I think anyway.