You flinch, I flinch...

[ZUG]

I am going "down a different path" here and it is -- RECOIL - yes recoil. I say this because all of us (or 99.9% of us) started out shooting MODERN guns as a young lad and the first thing you relized when you pull the trigger of a firearm is noise & RECOIL and your natural reaction to it was to move, jump, twitch or some other such thing. We did not grow up in an era of shooting flintlocks where you learned very quickly to hold steady AFTER you pulled the trigger if you wanted to bring meat home to the table. :v

 

[Billnpatti]

If you are lucky enough to have a friend capable of it, a good way to learn not to flinch is to have him load the gun for you, but not let you know if he really loaded it or only put in prime. You may see yourself doing some impressive gymnastics, and knowing you are doing that can be a big help.

Spence

This is a common training technique....But if you know it is being done, then the seed for a flinch of anticipation has been sown.

I will have to disagree with you on this one point. One of my granddaughters had a flinch when shooting handguns. So, I took some Snap Caps and one of my revolvers to the range. I would load some chambers with live rounds and some with Snap Caps in a random order so when I handed the gun to her, she didn't know whether each shot would go off or just snap. Only one session at the range and she had gotten rid of almost all of her flinches. The system works even when the shooter knows that some chambers will not go off. There is no reason that it won't work just as well with a flintlock when someone else is "loading" the rifle. As long as the shooter doesn't know if the gun will really fire or just "clatch", he can get rid of his flinch. It may take one session for a minor flinch or it may take several sessions to get rid of a bad flinch but it will almost always work. Having said that, I emphasize the word "almost"..... ain't nothin' fool proof. :shake:

 

[SgtErv]

I concur that it's in anticipation instead of reaction.

I was having a bear of a time achieving even a semblance of accuracy in the Brown Bess and took a video of my shooting it. I slowed it own, watched it frame by frame, and sure enough I was flinching just about as soon as the trigger broke. My eyes were closed before the flash occurred.

Ive been practicing a lot, and am learning how to overcome it. It's certainly much easier with a sensitive trigger

My flinch is much, much more pronounced if it's been a while since Ive shot too. But after a few shots I can sort of settle in - less so when there is less time between shooting sessions.

Great post. Very interesting

 

[coloradoclyde]

If you are lucky enough to have a friend capable of it, a good way to learn not to flinch is to have him load the gun for you, but not let you know if he really loaded it or only put in prime. You may see yourself doing some impressive gymnastics, and knowing you are doing that can be a big help.

Spence

This is a common training technique....But if you know it is being done, then the seed for a flinch of anticipation has been sown.

I will have to disagree with you on this one point.

Ok!.....and I'll also say the reverse is true..."Knowing" the gun might be empty also mentally prepares you for the flinch...Either way it is a product anticipation...You either successfully prepare for it or you don't.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Let us not forget, we are hanging onto an explosion....

 

[coloradoclyde]

I concur that it's in anticipation instead of reaction.

I will but only so far.....A new shooter has no point of reference, so the only thing they can anticipate is the unknown....
Anticipation can be clearly seen with a modern gun when someone forgets to take the safety off and flinches trying to pull the trigger.

 

[Black Hand]

I concur that it's in anticipation instead of reaction.

I will but only so far.....A new shooter has no point of reference, so the only thing they can anticipate is the unknown....
Anticipation can be clearly seen with a modern gun when someone forgets to take the safety off and flinches trying to pull the trigger.

I believe the most common issue (I experienced it myself) is anticipation of the recoil with an unfamiliar firearm. Unconsciously, one fears the recoil from a barrel with a big bore, but with muzzleloaders, the recoil is more of a push than the sharp impact of a large-bore centerfire. I must have pulled/flinched my first shot with a 54 cal right off the target.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Remember it's not just the lock ignition time that is in play here, but the time from sear trip to projectile exit.

In Pletch's tests a cap lock ball exited the muzzle around .035 seconds after sear trip, and a rock gun exited around .085 seconds. And that was from a 9"-10" pistol. Assuming an exit velocity (from the pistol) of 700 fps, we're going to have some additional barrel dwell time for a projectile from a rifle. So if there is 36" more barrel, and an exit velocity from a rifle of 1700 fps, a simple calculation (just an average of the additional 1000 fps) tells you there will be an additional .006-.008 seconds that will elapse. Not much additional time, but now we're getting up to around .100 seconds, which is getting close. Also, don't forget the gas coming out the touch hole is going to be exerting some lateral force to try and move the breech (and by extension the muzzle) on you too. It won't move it much, but it doesn't have to move it much to throw your shot off a fair amount at some distance down range.

Same thing with barrel recoil. he instant the ball starts moving forward the barrel is going to want to move backwards. The greater the drop at the butt off the bore center, (as well as the greater the charge / pressure / recoil) the greater the tangent force to want to make the muzzle rise. That also applies to the pressure or volume of gas coming out the touch hole (and exerted lateral force).

 

[Mean Gene]

How about blinking, I noticed while shooting today I blink just as the trigger breaks and flinched at the same time... Guess I need practice, practice, practice.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I can say this with certainty......Blinking is one thing.... but, noticing that you blinked, tells me that you are definitely not focused on the target...

 

[Bo T]

Years ago I tried the whole (breathing, positioning, timing your shot with your heartbeat, and etc.). But the one thing that helps me the most is maintaining focus and alignment of the front sight. Overall, just keeping the front sight on the target pretty much eliminated flinch.

 

[Don Steele]

The Colonel brings up a new point for discussion.
This is one that I have wondered about, and toyed around with myself.
For purposes of this conversation, I'd like to focus on my flintlock longrifle.
40 caliber, 42 inch swamped bbl.
Talking about offhand shooting from the 25 yd. line.
I've varied my powder charges from 30 gns. Goex fffg to 55 gns. Goex fffg.
FWIW,I get decent results around 40 gns. but whenever I spend a day using 50, I come away with the perception that the rifle was "more forgiving" of my less than perfect hold on the target through the shot.
Could the faster speed of the ball down the bbl. be a factor...???
If so then, should we be shooting the max load we can that provides the tight group we all seek??

 

[Billnpatti]

I recently read somewhere, I don't remember exactly where, about how a ball traveling through the transition zone from supersonic to subsonic will have a negative effect on accuracy. The writer suggested that a shooter either shoot a ball with a MV below the speed of sound or use enough powder to keep the ball above the speed of sound all the way to the target. He recommended that for maximum accuracy, the ball should not be allowed to get into the transition zone on the way to the target.

Thus it was written. I cannot vouch for what the author said so take it for what it is worth. I am just sharing it for your amazement, amusement and edification.

 

[Walks with fire]

Hello Spence;

It is my belief that a "flinch" is all in the mind. It is the result of the sub-conscious attempt to protect yourself. The anticipation that the shot is going to hurt you is what happens. Be it recoil, target panic, or a flash in front of yourself; it's all the same. A heavy trigger pull does the same thing as it causes one to jerk the trigger when getting your wobble back on target.

Once a person has done enough shooting that the sub-conscious is assured there will be no damage to the self then quality shooting can begin. How long will that take? For some not very long but others a good amount of shooting. As soon as the thinking mind enters the picture your best shooting is not going to occur. As in many things it has to be a reactive learned response. I like to think of it as point, click and ship just like the UPS commercial. No thinking about it just do it. The best shots run on the sub-conscious and not the thinking mind. A researched opinion. Golfers do the same thing with putting; they get too technical and over think the putt. See the line and hit the putt. No thinking once you get over the ball. In hunting/shooting observe what you want to hit and don't think about it just do it.

Get sighted in and get off the bench, stand on your feet or use field positions and shoot; the results will show up on the dinner plate. Punching nice little groups from the bench have little to do with learning to shoot. :thumbsup: ff

 

[Walks with fire]

An interesting link. The twist and load play into it. My testing of slow twist and 1/48 ball twist is certainly bearing this out at ranges beyond 100 yards. Problem is that other than a custom barrel real slow twists are not available and certainly of little benefit to a round ball hunter as 100 yards is about the limit of ethical shooting.


http://www.leverguns.com/articles/wosika.htm

 

[Billnpatti]

Eureka! I have found it!...to quote a man far more brilliant than me. The article that I spoke of is found in the October 2016 issue of Muzzle Blasts magazine in the Back To Basics section by The Bevel Brothers. That article is on pages 37 through 40.

On the top of page 38, Bevel Down says "So if you are target shooting, you will want to shoot a load that keeps the velocity either above or below the speed of sound all the way to the target."

Those Bevel Brothers are pretty sharp so I tend to believe what they say.

 

[George]

That's not a new idea, it has been around in the competitive shooting world for a long time. I first read about it a lot of years ago relating to .22 target shooting, they make special ammo for that reason.

I've always been skeptical of its importance in ML shooting, especially for my hunting guns. I ignore it, shoot my best charges regardless of velocities and have never noticed any problems getting good accuracy with a wide range of calibers, fast or slow, near or far. When it comes to some of these ideas about ballistics, maybe the guy who said ignorance is bliss was on to something. :grin:

Spence

 

[Danny Ross]

X's 2. Great explanation. I see the same anticipation flinch in archery also. DANNY

 

[M. De Land]

Any thing that causes your body or psyche a discomfort is flinch fodder in my opinion as the body and mind naturally react defensively against it.

 

[Zonie]

Shooting a flinch-lock taught me to avoid flinching and to develop full "follow thru".

Shooting with the elbow of my supporting hand resting on the bench at a local shooting range makes both me and the rifle there for all to see when the shot is fired.

Being a flintlock, even on the best of days, there will be an occasional flash in the pan (FITP) and there is no way to predict when it will happen.

With this in mind, I've taught myself to expect a misfire and the idea that flinching from a FITP would be obvious and would give too many shooters the ammunition to "roast" me at every opportunity caused me to learn to concentrate and follow thru.

That's why I take careful aim and concentrate only on the front sight and the target before, during and after the trigger pull.
I try to maintain this for at least a full 2 seconds after I pull the trigger.

Learning this carries over to shooting off hand. The only difference is I'm standing up when I take the shot.