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Wire bolt/trigger spring

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ernbar

45 Cal.
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Just discovered the bolt trigger spring in my Pietta 1851 Navy snapped. I called Wolff and ordered a couple of their wire springs. They don’t list any for Pietta but for Uberti and other clones. Has anyone used the Wolff wire spring in the Pietta 1851 or 1860?
He couldn’t give me a definitive answer but said it may work. I have read they are a tad short on the Pietta but will work if the bend on the short end is straightened out a tad.

IMG_7039.jpeg
 
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Just discovered the bolt trigger spring in my Pietta 1851 Navy snapped. I called Wolff and ordered a couple of their wire springs. They don’t list any for Pietta but for Uberti and other clones. Has anyone used the Wolff wire spring in the Pietta 1851 or 1860?
He couldn’t give me a definitive answer but said it may work. I have read they are a tad short on the Pietta but will work if the bend on the short end is straightened out a tad.

View attachment 261800
I wind my own coil and torsion/coil springs from piano wire for a good many different guns on the lathe and jigs I have made but the best fix I have come up with for single action revolver bolt/ trigger return spring is to make them from the stainless flat, drive spring , taken from a used Luftkin tape measure. The material is almost impossible to cut and drill with anything but carbide tools and cut off wheel but is perfectly suited in profile and flatness/thickness when finished to make a spring every bit as reliable as a piano wire spring with the added benefit of substantially lightening the trigger pull. The drive spring out of the Luftkin tape measure comes wound in a flat coil already shaped to work perfectly in any single action and is actually tougher material than is piano wire spring stock.
I have seen wire, coil and coil/torsion springs fail/break but never had one of the ones shown break.
They are a bit of a pain to make because of the stainless toughness but anyone with a Dremel tool cut off wheel and carbide bit could easily fabricate one for themselves.
 

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It's been written that the Colt style spring has more than the needed tension needed to do the job. Many advocate the use of the wire springs, some like em, some don't. I'm one of those that don't care for the mushy feel of the wire springs. They seem inadequate IMO, but some differ. I placed a thin washer under the Colt style spring, then screwed it in place after having problems with an 1860 Army Model framed 1872 Model unmentionable. Bolt was falling to soon on that one, battering the forward edge of the cylinder due to short of a bolt and it had a heavy trigger.

A forum member on CAS forum suggested the washer under the trigger spring. Works very well, feels better than a wire spring, doesn't have the stiffness and heavy weight feel of the original setup. In 51 years of shooting many many many rounds I've yet to break a spring of any sort in a Colt single action style firearm. Replaced a few over stiff main springs but that's it. Years ago bought a few extra of the needed springs that may need replacing and they still lie in a former Sierra bullet box. Drilling a small hole at the bottom of the left and right sides of the Colt trigger spring where they meet also helps take tension off the leaves. Not very big, just so there is a bit of a noticeable gap larger than the factory space. Rounding the top edges of the short and long leaves with stone also the flat surfaces that contact the frame and trigger helps with lessening tension and promotes a smoother action. All easily done. If drilling a hole in-between the leaves on the trigger spring go slow so as not to heat the metal that would weaken it.
 
It's been written that the Colt style spring has more than the needed tension needed to do the job. Many advocate the use of the wire springs, some like em, some don't. I'm one of those that don't care for the mushy feel of the wire springs. They seem inadequate IMO, but some differ. I placed a thin washer under the Colt style spring, then screwed it in place after having problems with an 1860 Army Model framed 1872 Model unmentionable. Bolt was falling to soon on that one, battering the forward edge of the cylinder due to short of a bolt and it had a heavy trigger.

A forum member on CAS forum suggested the washer under the trigger spring. Works very well, feels better than a wire spring, doesn't have the stiffness and heavy weight feel of the original setup. In 51 years of shooting many many many rounds I've yet to break a spring of any sort in a Colt single action style firearm. Replaced a few over stiff main springs but that's it. Years ago bought a few extra of the needed springs that may need replacing and they still lie in a former Sierra bullet box. Drilling a small hole at the bottom of the left and right sides of the Colt trigger spring where they meet also helps take tension off the leaves. Not very big, just so there is a bit of a noticeable gap larger than the factory space. Rounding the top edges of the short and long leaves with stone also the flat surfaces that contact the frame and trigger helps with lessening tension and promotes a smoother action. All easily done. If drilling a hole in-between the leaves on the trigger spring go slow so as not to heat the metal that would weaken it.
I had not thought of the hole idea between the leafs to reduce leaf tension. The round shape would discourage cracks forming. I came up with this spring made of the tough stainless spring material as I have had to change a few factory bolt/trigger springs that broke over time and use.
It is one of the most common failures in single action revolvers.
 
Reason number 686 why folks shouldn't carry these novelties as concealed carry or open carry firearms for self defense purposes.

Unless they have been updated to the current torsion spring setup that for all intents and purposes makes them as modern as the latest modern factory SA offerings.
If you feel comfortable with a Ruger, Freedom Arms, BFR, then you would be in the same company with an updated Uberti / Pietta or any earlier manufacturer.

Mike
 
It's been written that the Colt style spring has more than the needed tension needed to do the job. Many advocate the use of the wire springs, some like em, some don't. I'm one of those that don't care for the mushy feel of the wire springs. They seem inadequate IMO, but some differ. I placed a thin washer under the Colt style spring, then screwed it in place after having problems with an 1860 Army Model framed 1872 Model unmentionable. Bolt was falling to soon on that one, battering the forward edge of the cylinder due to short of a bolt and it had a heavy trigger.

A forum member on CAS forum suggested the washer under the trigger spring. Works very well, feels better than a wire spring, doesn't have the stiffness and heavy weight feel of the original setup. In 51 years of shooting many many many rounds I've yet to break a spring of any sort in a Colt single action style firearm. Replaced a few over stiff main springs but that's it. Years ago bought a few extra of the needed springs that may need replacing and they still lie in a former Sierra bullet box. Drilling a small hole at the bottom of the left and right sides of the Colt trigger spring where they meet also helps take tension off the leaves. Not very big, just so there is a bit of a noticeable gap larger than the factory space. Rounding the top edges of the short and long leaves with stone also the flat surfaces that contact the frame and trigger helps with lessening tension and promotes a smoother action. All easily done. If drilling a hole in-between the leaves on the trigger spring go slow so as not to heat the metal that would weaken it.
Yeah, I taper and polish both contact angles on the new spring. They work better than anything else I've yet tried plus I get a kick out of repurposing perfectly good used stuff I would normally throw out.
I also use the spring stock for the keep springs for the cleaning rod on my range box . It has all sorts of uses where a flat leaf spring is needed. It is so tough even when ground nearly in two one has to bend it back and forth to worry it into breaking.
Make the spring as shown and you'll never have to make a replacement !
 
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Just discovered the bolt trigger spring in my Pietta 1851 Navy snapped. I called Wolff and ordered a couple of their wire springs. They don’t list any for Pietta but for Uberti and other clones. Has anyone used the Wolff wire spring in the Pietta 1851 or 1860?
He couldn’t give me a definitive answer but said it may work. I have read they are a tad short on the Pietta but will work if the bend on the short end is straightened out a tad.

The problem with wire springs that replace the flat springs is that they are just a modern version of the same "beam" spring that the flat spring is. They will still break. They "stack" tension just like the flat spring.

The advantage of the coil torsion spring is that it maintains a fairly constant ( no stacking) force on the part. That in turn means basically no wear on the spring as there is minimal movement of the trigger/ bolt anyway. Same with a coil and pushrod setup for the hand spring.
But, they aren't commercially available so . . . I would offer them commercially but there are part mods that need to be done so . . .

Mike
 
Reason number 686 why folks shouldn't carry these novelties as concealed carry or open carry firearms for self defense purposes.

Unless they have been updated to the current torsion spring setup that for all intents and purposes makes them as modern as the latest modern factory SA offerings.
If you feel comfortable with a Ruger, Freedom Arms, BFR, then you would be in the same company with an updated Uberti / Pietta or any earlier manufacturer.

Mike

Mike you can talk about the improvements to 19th Century percussion revolvers you work on be they percussion cap and ball or cartridge conversions all you want, but "they ain't" no match for personal defense ifin ya come up against someone intent on taking your life or someone else's when the perpetrator is armed with modern firearms or a weapon you need to defend against. In the real world with its problems, people aren't going to be shooting in some timed SASS or NCOWS match or shooting at tin cans in the back yard, shooters need to be aware of that, no matter how fast they can empty a single action cylinder. I love shooting my percussions and conversions, but if the SHTF no way. If I happen to be shooting an 1800 era handgun and it's all I happen to have, well sure, I'll work with it, one could do the job with the right hit in center mass, but there is a need to be armed with a weapon that 'will without a doubt' be effective, modern, and fast loading if need be. I don't carry any percussion or conversion when I leave home as a concealed weapon or even a modern single action. At home I don't have any percussion or conversion loaded for self defense, I don't even rely on any of my modern single action big bore six shooters for 24/7 defense. Sure a single action with five or six rounds can be effective, maybe only one round will be needed. A single shot flint or caplock with only one round could be effective, but I wouldn't want to stake my life on one. I'll stake my 21 years of law enforcement, what I've seen, what I've dealt with, and my training on the need to be better armed. Nothing against you personally. CC
 
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Mike you can 'carnival bark' the improvements to 19th Century percussion revolvers you work on be them percussion cap and ball or cartridge conversions all you want, but "they ain't" no match for personal defense ifin ya come up against someone intent on taking your life or someone else's when the perpetrator is armed with modern firearms or any weapon. With those firearms in the real world with its problems, people aren't going to be shooting some timed SASS or NCOWS match or shooting at tin cans in the back yard. I love shooting my percussions and conversions, but if the SHTF no way. If I happen to be shooting an 1800 era handgun and it's all I happen to have, well sure, I'll work with it, one could do the job with the right hit in center mass, but there is a need to be armed with a weapon that 'will without a doubt' be effective, modern, and fast loading if need be. I don't carry any percussion or conversion when I leave home as a concealed weapon. At home I don't have any percussion or conversion loaded for self defense, I don't even rely on any of my modern single action big bore six shooters. Get with it Mike, I'll stake my 21 years of law enforcement, what I've seen, what I've dealt with, and my training against your whatever years you have as a gunsmith making cap posts, rakes, and springs. Nothing against you personally but come on. CC

CC, I'm sure you are light years ahead of me with training and your use of "bottom feeders" and high tech add-ons. If my comparison of 19th century type SA revolvers from Italy being "updated" to the operational equivalent of modern produced Rugers, Freedom Arms, BFR's and such doesn't meet your approval for self defense then I sincerely apologize! I'm a member of several forums and one in particular has quite a few folks that have shot SA revolvers probably longer than we've been alive ( I'm 66 yrs young) and I'd never tell them they'd do better to get a semi than the SA for they're daily carry . . . it's not my place to decide that for anybody (except maybe my son / daughters but that IS my job as a parent) . . .
Anyway, none of my personal revolvers have a cap post btw (remember, I only shoot unmentionables) but if I am ever in a situation and am fortunate enough to get the first round off (if needed) I'm pretty sure a 250gr 45 cal will get the perps attention ( I usually have a Ruger with me)!! I will also say I've never had to deal with a case jamming the action ( I've had semi's do that).
My response to the post about these " novelties" having flat springs not being the best for SD was because I agree!! And the biggest reason is exactly that!!! Torsion springs ( what all the cool folks are using these days) is by far the better system than flats. My point is "wires" are better but not that much ( I used to save the broken ones I took out of customer guns). I also realize if I have an opinion about something, it must be because of what I do . . . so it must be a commercial . . . minus the "send it to me!!!" part (which I've never done but some do on other forums).

Nothing personal taken.

( this is not an ad )
Mike
 
OK MIke, I apologize for the post. Sort of hit me the wrong way when I read your response to 64 Springer about a spring replacement to a 1800 era single action making them an equivalent to a modern made single action sort of hit me wrong. I still don't feel a Uberti or Pietta is, even updated from the original workings, but an improvement, I'll give ya that. I did go back and rewrote (edited) my post as I felt the original was a bit to corrosive and I do apologize. You didn't deserve that, bad on me.

I still don't feel a single action no matter if from the 1800's that is a modern remake or a one from the 1900's or 2000's is a match for weaponry available today. One could be effective for sure. If I were shooting one and was all I had, I'd make it work. I realize back in the day shooters and many law enforcement carried single actions with alot of success and if needed, a single action even if it were a 22 could be effective if shot placement is good. As a LEO I always carried a DA Colt, still have it and it could still a reliable piece. Your mention of brass jams on a semi-auto, yep for years that has been a problem, not as much as they once were, but a real possibility. BTW, I have no time for poly/plastic framed pistols, especially the ones that start with a 'G', all steel for me. Also I'm not a fan of "add-on's", ie. suppressors, flashlights, laser sights, red dot sights, optical sights, or even fiber optic sights. I do have one semi-auto with titanium night sights. FWIW also, especially for those who don't shoot as much, IMO a DA revolver is the best way to go for personal defense if a handgun is the choice. Anyway you have a good day as you read this. Also I'm glad there are still 'smiths' like you around to take care of the shooting fraternity, you "ad" all you want! Take care. Crow Choker
 
OK MIke, I apologize for the post. Sort of hit me the wrong way when I read your response to 64 Springer about a spring replacement to a 1800 era single action making them an equivalent to a modern made single action sort of hit me wrong. I still don't feel a Uberti or Pietta is, even updated from the original workings, but an improvement, I'll give ya that. I did go back and rewrote (edited) my post as I felt the original was a bit to corrosive and I do apologize. You didn't deserve that, bad on me.

I still don't feel a single action no matter if from the 1800's that is a modern remake or a one from the 1900's or 2000's is a match for weaponry available today. One could be effective for sure. If I were shooting one and was all I had, I'd make it work. I realize back in the day shooters and many law enforcement carried single actions with alot of success and if needed, a single action even if it were a 22 could be effective if shot placement is good. As a LEO I always carried a DA Colt, still have it and it could still a reliable piece. Your mention of brass jams on a semi-auto, yep for years that has been a problem, not as much as they once were, but a real possibility. BTW, I have no time for poly/plastic framed pistols, especially the ones that start with a 'G', all steel for me. Also I'm not a fan of "add-on's", ie. suppressors, flashlights, laser sights, red dot sights, optical sights, or even fiber optic sights. I do have one semi-auto with titanium night sights. FWIW also, especially for those who don't shoot as much, IMO a DA revolver is the best way to go for personal defense if a handgun is the choice. Anyway you have a good day as you read this. Also I'm glad there are still 'smiths' like you around to take care of the shooting fraternity, you "ad" all you want! Take care. Crow Choker

Thanks buddy, but just so ya know, I've been talking with some folks " in the know " about some "bottom feeders" . Stuff's getting "real" on the global scale and since we've had the southern door open for "anyone" to come in . . . who knows?!!! So, we're "in the market" . . . just don't tell anyone 😎.

Mike
 
Just discovered the bolt trigger spring in my Pietta 1851 Navy snapped. I called Wolff and ordered a couple of their wire springs. They don’t list any for Pietta but for Uberti and other clones. Has anyone used the Wolff wire spring in the Pietta 1851 or 1860?
He couldn’t give me a definitive answer but said it may work. I have read they are a tad short on the Pietta but will work if the bend on the short end is straightened out a tad.

View attachment 261800

Checked back on the CAS forum reference your spring problems. One of the members who claims he's a retired gunsmith, but he still works on guns yet, advised that the Pietta springs are softer than Uberti's. Softer meaning not as stiff of a feel. His recommendation is for anyone with a Uberti handgun that breaks their trigger spring is to replace it with one listed for a Pietta model and also suggested getting rid of all the trigger springs in your Uberti's and replacing with a Pietta.

As far as the tip I mentioned back on Post #7 of placing a thin washer of the appropriate dimeter under the spring, then screwing the trigger spring tight, it was 45D who suggested that trick to me. Works very well, I still have the original Uberti spring in the 1860 framed revolver I was having issues with at the time. Reference your question about will one fit in another and vice versa, according to the information by the CAS member and he is a well versed and experienced gun plumber as he calls himself, they are interchangeable.

ernbar'---If you or anyone are interested in the information I just posted about trigger springs on the CAS Forum, go to the Gunsmithing Section, click on Page 7, about 3/4 of the way down there is a thread I started titled "Colt Richards/Mason Bolt Timing". The last post was on 02/04/17-good information by a number of respondents.
 
Ah yes, I may remember that CC. That is exactly what Mr. Martin taught me to do. I still do it for tuning flats. It gives a different aspect for the "tuning " of the springs for less stress.

Mike
 
Just discovered the bolt trigger spring in my Pietta 1851 Navy snapped. I called Wolff and ordered a couple of their wire springs. They don’t list any for Pietta but for Uberti and other clones. Has anyone used the Wolff wire spring in the Pietta 1851 or 1860?
He couldn’t give me a definitive answer but said it may work. I have read they are a tad short on the Pietta but will work if the bend on the short end is straightened out a tad.

View attachment 261800
Only way to go Wire spring lasts forever
 

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