• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Which Hide and Tools for Ball Bags?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Artificer said:
As already noted, what one may find in other stores may not be the exact same thing I found. However, IF one is interested in getting some good leather for a shooting pouch, I highly encourage folks to get over to their Tandy store before the end of the month comes and the sale ends AND go through every side in the pile.

Yup. It really is a hot deal on some potentially good leather. You should have seen me dragging the stuff through the door with my wife standing there giving me THE LOOK and literally tapping her foot! :rotf:
 
Try not to take your wife. Sometimes letting her babysit the grandchildren ( as if they don't have your attention and you are aloof), sometimes buying her something small whilst you go astray, and, if you're desperate, wait until there are some other people occupying her and walk out backwards like you was coming in. Have not tried the last one, but Heckle and Jeckle got away with it years ago...

The best one is what I used when I bought my rifle...It jumped into my car and I did not see it until I got home. I can drive it back if you want me to risk it because I am kinda tired and would like to maybe take it back tomorrow...or Tuesday. Yeah, that's it...Tuesday...
 
BrownBear said:
Artificer said:
As already noted, what one may find in other stores may not be the exact same thing I found. However, IF one is interested in getting some good leather for a shooting pouch, I highly encourage folks to get over to their Tandy store before the end of the month comes and the sale ends AND go through every side in the pile.

Yup. It really is a hot deal on some potentially good leather. You should have seen me dragging the stuff through the door with my wife standing there giving me THE LOOK and literally tapping her foot! :rotf:

You mean to say you don't have a Tandy store a block away from yer house? :doh: :wink:
Watching one of the 'Alaska' shows the other night they made some gloves from sealskin. It was said the skin is very thin but very tough and durable. Might be fun to make something with it. We don't see many seals in the Ozarks.
 
For ball bags I like a very thin and flexible leather. My current one is made from goat, and works very well. I do reenacting, and I carry the ball bag tucked under my belt/sash. With 2-4 balls in the upper part, above the belt and draped down, I can remove the stopper, let out one ball and close the stopper quickly and easily with one hand. Very handy, and saves space in my shot bag/shooting bag.



Rifleman1776, Roger's Rangers did make something of sealskin, according to John Knox:

"A body of rangers, under the command of Captain Rogers...a bullock's horn full of powder hangs under their right arm by a belt from the left shoulder; and a leathern, or seal's skin bag, buckled round their waist, which hangs down before, contains bullets, and a smaller shot of the size of full green peas: six or seven of which, with a ball they generally load;"

Spence
 
In the maritime uses up here, sea lion and walrus were top choices because they were thicker and more durable. The seal leather I've handled isn't much thicker than deer, though perhaps a little tougher. Everything from boots to belts to skin boats and chafing gear on ships was usually made of the first two, usually heavily oiled too.

Interesting enough, one of the prized products from seal was the gut, which was split and dried, then sewn for waterproof rain parkas. Don't recall seeing much of anything made from seal skin other than hair-on hide for clothing, but those gut parkas are well documented and found in museums, plus a few traditional workers today still make the seal gut parkas for display. Walrus hides are still used for skin boats or "umiaks," with sewers using a special stitch that remains waterproof. Nobody chewing skins these days, but still a lot of traditional uses when you get away from sidewalks and asphalt.
 
Ball bags can be made of just about any kind of leather. Some ball bags are made of heavier leather and are molded to hold their shape. A stopper is put into the top much like a stopper in a powder horn. The bags that I use for ball bags are made of deer hide. I have some that are simple drawstring bags and a couple of deer hide bags that have spouts made of cow horn tips. I do not have stoppers in them since the soft bag simply folds over and prevents the balls from freely spilling out. I use deer hide simply because that is what I have. If I had heavier leather, I might try making a formed ball bag. There are many forms of ball bags and the style that you pick will determine what kind of leather that you will need. In turn, the kind of leather that you use will determine the kind of needles that you will need.
 
George said:
Rifleman1776, Roger's Rangers did make something of sealskin, according to John Knox:

"A body of rangers, under the command of Captain Rogers...a bullock's horn full of powder hangs under their right arm by a belt from the left shoulder; and a leathern, or seal's skin bag, buckled round their waist, which hangs down before, contains bullets, and a smaller shot of the size of full green peas: six or seven of which, with a ball they generally load;"

Spence

As usual, Spence is spot on with original quotes.

I have seen period quotes where sealskin was used on what we call shooting pouches/bags by civilians using fowling guns and also where they were describing a Riflemans' shooting pouch, at times. Some times Military quotes on "shot pouches" (to differentiate between them and a cartridge box) or "pouches" that were sometimes attached to cartridge box straps to give more room to carry more paper cartridges, were also described as having been made of sealskin.

Unfortunately, I have not saved those quotes because I thought it was illegal to own Sealskin as of the 1972 ban? However, I am pretty certain those quotes are in Bailey's works and Of Sorts for Provincials and A Soldier-Like Way - both of the latter about the FIW period.

Gus
 
I thought it was illegal to own Sealskin as of the 1972 ban?

Not for Native Americans and Eskimos. They can use them for traditional uses and even to generate "crafts" for sale. You might not be able to get the seal skin to make your own, but with a pattern in hand you can hire it out to those who can do it legally. How much more traditional use can there be than ball bags?
 
Rifleman1776 said:
I dunno 'bout that. But it was native indians (Eskimos) that killed and skinned the seals on that TV show.
Yes, it was Rogers guys who killed all our seals in Appalachia and Ozarks. :rotf:

There seems to have been a good worldwide trade in sealskin going back to the 17th century and especially in the 18th century, here in the Colonies. There are many accounts of Colonial tradesmen preferring to buy their leather of many different kinds from Britain or the Continent, as well. So sealskin items could well have been used by those Europeans who first came to Appalachia and the Ozarks.

Gus
 
BrownBear said:
I thought it was illegal to own Sealskin as of the 1972 ban?

Not for Native Americans and Eskimos. They can use them for traditional uses and even to generate "crafts" for sale. You might not be able to get the seal skin to make your own, but with a pattern in hand you can hire it out to those who can do it legally. How much more traditional use can there be than ball bags?

That is interesting, though one has to be somewhat close to Eskimo's or NA's who have access to the sealskin leather I suppose? I wasn't sure if ONLY Eskimo's and NA's were allowed to use it, like many other things.

Gus
 
The problem with using thin skins for a ball bag is that you tend to pick the bag up by the drawstrings. I had a nice beaver bag that the wight of the balls tore the drawstring right through the holes.
 
Hmmm :hmm: Never had the problem of my balls tearing through my bag. I carry about 25 or 30 .54 cal. balls in my bag and have never had a problem with the bag tearing. Surely deer hide is not stronger than beaver hide. How many balls are you trying to carry in your bag? :confused: :confused:
 
If one just slits the leather for the drawstrings, I could see how the drawstrings might tear through the slits, especially if the top of the slits were close to the top of the pouch. However, if one punches holes for the drawstrings or punches tiny holes at each end of the slits and the slits are not close to the top of the bag - then it is not likely to downright improbable for the drawstrings to tear through properly tanned leather.

Gus
 
2i8hibr.jpg
[/img]

xf6iw0.jpg
[/img]


Shortly after the first post, my children and I began making these bags as time allowed. We purchased a deer hide from Tandy and made them with two pieces, the bottom 2-1/8" and the side 2-3/4" x 6" and stitched them up. Most were "branded" with a soldering iron, while others had tags made as they will likely serve other purposes in the future.

They are basically the size of current pill bottles and will hold 78 .454 round ball or 40 .530 round ball ; enough for a day of shooting. They look a little small at first but do stretch out and the earliest ones have held up well after a couple of trips to the range.

Thanks for all your input which helped make this project a success.

My next project will be to up-size them in the same proportions and make and put in them various 18th century games for my nieces and nephews for Christmas.
 
BrownBear said:
horner75 said:
Then again, he might be talking about those wooden necked bags that Cutfingers floods the Classifies with or should I say, Cutfingers Classifies section. ....... :rotf:

Boy, the snow must be getting deep and the TV bad in some parts of the country. :slap:

tyou get TV reception??? wish I had TV ... kinda miss it
 
druid said:
A cautionary note though...If you are going to create items that are meant to be historically correct, you will have to forgo any kind of man-made metal stamps, snaps or rivets, in favor of rudimentary carving techniques and lace thongs and toggles/PC buttons.

Even your sewing medium will have to be selected appropriately. Using sinews made from animal tendons [deer/elk mostly] should be used [or cotton linen thread], avoiding "artificial sinew" or other nylon threads. If you don't care about HC, then artificial sinew and copper rivets with burrs are perfect.

I'm sorry and not sure where you got your info but other than the synthetic thread and snaps mentioned all of the above were used in period dependent on the type of work done and by whom - pro or amateur.
1) Rivets with burrs have been used since the Romans - here's a sheath dated 1840 made with rivets:
1840-bowie-001.jpg

2) Carving - period pieces show carving in many grades, including rudimentary, but also very fine work.
3) Lacing - seldom used by pros other than the Spanish. Most lacing seen was on original work was done by amateurs or as field expedient repair.
4) Thread - yep real sinew (when doing frontier or Indian goods), other than that linen or hemp thread were the most common until the 1830's when cotton thread became more common, but of the three the cotton is has the least strength where as hemp is the strongest vegetable fiber with linen closer to hemp. I mostly use Barbour's Red Hand or Fils aux Chinois linen thread or a good quality hemp thread from various period vendors. I tried to use the hemp cord available at Wally World but it is of fairly low quality. For weights I generally use 3 cord or 5 cord Barbours dependent on the product.

Regarding leather and as noted it will depend on what type bag your making:
1) re: Oil Tan - this is not a true oil tan in the trade is known as oil re-tan i.e. it is a chrome tanned leather that then goes through a an oil process.
2) Veg/bark/Oak Tan: This the traditional cowhide tanning method used for the great bulk of period shot pouches, especially the commercial/pro made ones.

HC/PC - if this matters than your bags should be made from:
1) veg tanned cowhide, the most commonly available material.
2)Veg tanned deer or elk hide - a period correct tannage, but expensive since it's a boutique/specialty tannage and not a commercial one.
3)True oil tan - The German tanned deer hides from Crazy Crow are the same oil tannage as used back when. In fact German tan is the method used for the vast majority of the leather breeches. A great alternative to real brain tan at a less expensive price.
4) Brain tan elk or deer - if making a native or native inspired bag. Expensive since again it is supplied only by small boutique/specialty vendors.
5) Commercial elk and buck skin - chrome tanned

FYI - chrome tanned leather was not developed until the 1860's and was not produced commercially until the 1880's.

Dealer recommendations - FWIW I've been a pro leather crafter since 1971 and t was my full time job for the last 18 years so these are my observations based on that experience:
1) Tandy - like many I used Tandy when beginning and for many years after, but starting in the 1980's their quality began to suffer and I've used some since than but 8 out of 10 times I had to return it. IF you have experience or not some one who does and you can go to the store to go through their stacks, then go for it, but if you have to buy via mail then there are better options, especially since their prices are often higher than other suppliers.
2) My favorite for the last 10 years: RJF Leather. This some of the finest veg tan I've ever used. Reportedly it is old time pit tanned with oak from Portugal. Roger is the man. I mostly use his doeble shoulders which run around 13 s/ft, IMO the best buy for the buck, although he sells full side as well for those who may need a larger piece. Like most dealers it comes in 3 grades (the grades vary in name from tannery to tannery) A, B, & C or 1, 2, 3. You order from Roger, he sends the leather and an invoice.
2) Wickett & Craig - buy direct from the tannery. When I use this brand I get the saddle tan rather than the craft tan since the saddle tan is a bit oilier. They generally only sell sides of around 22 s/ft so for the hobbiest they may not be the best. Also you can buy thicker sides and have them split which gives you an almost perfect back side.
3) Herman Oak you can buy from the tannery but there is a 10 side minimum. On the other hand there are several outlets such as Montana Leather who sell HO. Great leather used by a plethora of saddle makers.

leather weight: Leather is sized by it's thickness and or weight. The ounce measurement so often seen is based on the old method of weighing a one square foot piece of the leather. Today it has a thickness equivalent: 1 oz = 1/64" so just multiply the ounces times 1/64" (.016") to get your thickness.

For those folks to whom PC/HC is important than the most commonly used weight of cowhide was 3/4 oz. On the other hand 4/5 can be used IF the weight is closer to 4 oz and yes 3/4 oz is MORE than strong enough and generally holds it shape well.
For softer leather like elk or deer one need to pre-stretch it. Dampen thoroughly, let any excess drip off, then stretch - FWIW - I use a plywood backing and nails to stretch and let it hang/dry for at least 48 hours. The thinner hides like deer may need some type of lining, but elk and German tan (Euro red deer similar to out elk/wapiti) are generally thick enough to hold up well as long as pre-stretched.

Hope that helps

and yes there are several other suppliers such as Ky Leather and Sprinfield Leather that sell good quality leather, but I prefer the ones listed since I KNOW the quality is good.

For sheath and holsters: the industry standard since the late 1800's has been 8/9 oz veg tan although on many period pieces 7/8 oz was used and on the el cheapos of the period 5/6 oz (often called chicken skin holsters in the late 1800's). Just how thick for sheaths will depend on blade length - for blade up to 4" I use 5/6 oz, 5-9" 8/9 oz, and anything bigger 10/11 oz. For period side center seam sheaths 5/6 or 6/7 works great.

any way as always other mileage will vary.....

PS for wax I use a 60/40mix of beeswax and rosin - a simplified version of coad (Greg G will know what I'm talking about). With the added rosin it makes the thread sticker and helps lock the thread in place, plus rosin is an anti-fungal/bacteria so it helps preserve the thread.
For needles : Harness needles - I like the John James or Osborne brands best. For three cord I use a #2 needle and for 5 cord a #0 needle.
A little trick - take a larger needle such as a 00 and mount in a handle to use a fid to open up holes if need by when back stitching. And yes I agree with Artificer - if you're going to sew leather get a copy of that book, but also take a lool at the videos by Nigel Armitage, a master British crafter.
 
Back
Top