What's up with THAT???!!!!!

[CaptainKirk]

So, last Saturday I met Goody up at the local BP range so he could sight in his new GPR, (me, the "expert" with my Lyman Trade Rifle in .50) He was shooting .490's with .015 patches and started his sighting-in with 65gr Pyro RS at 25 yards from the bench and with Shot One was grouping 3-shot groups, holes almost touching. Me, the "expert" used my usual load...65gr Pyro RS behind a Lee R.E.A.L. 320gr hand cast slug.
First shot was about 6" high and left. Next shot-better; 3" high on CL. And that was about the last shot that hit paper. Why? I dunno. Steve fired several of my REALs out of his GRP, and even with his slower (1:66) twist grouped them nice (albeit low). I've never noted these things for stellar accuracy, but I couldn't hit an elephant in the butt at point-blank range that day. But get this; the slugs were almost falling down the barrel. Literally! They weren't real tight in Steve's bore, but at least he needed the ramrod to seat them. Me; I could've seated them by tapping the butt on the ground-they were that loose! I tried 'em with lube, without, no difference. They were all over the place. A few of the holes on the backstop looked as if they were key-holing or tumbling. Tonight in frustration I did something I never wanted to-I bought a hundred .490 RBs and .015 patches and am going to start sighting in from scratch next time out. (I'd always been happy with the REALs before. But meanwhile, I'm left with a baggie full of REALs that have suddenly decided they won't play nice. Any ideas? (I haven't shot this rifle in a few years).
It has a 1:48 twist, so should handle ball or conical with ease. They never were really a tight fit, but never seemed this loose before. It's almost as if they were not sealing, or the bullets were stripping the rifling and just lobbing themselves out of the barrel.

 

[Jim Fitzgibbon]

Maybe try paper patching & sizing those things.

Fly :hmm:

 

[nkbj]

I've noted that the bore size in my .54 GPR is bigger than what will work with my REAL mold. But I have no idea how much variation there may be from box to box in the GPR bores and the REAL molds.

 

[fire-n-brimstone]

You could always get a roundball mold and melt those reals down.


Andy

 

[William O.]

Sometimes the 1:48 twist rifles will only shoot either RB or conicals well but not both. My .54 trade rifle is a real good RB shooter but so-so with conicals, the Great Plains bullet being the best of those. Have confidence in the RB though, especially in .54, to get the job done. You might want to mic the bore and see if yours is just a little large. I also suggest that you add a lubed fiber wad when shooting conicals as I've found them to tighten up my groups. Hope this helps.

 

[airmansteve]

What the heck... I would be curious to see what paper patching would do for your paper punching too!

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I have the exact same rifle you do!

My rifle likes the 370 grain T/C Maxi-Balls in warm weather and a .490 Hornady with .018 pre-lubed pillow-ticking patches in the colder months. Both loads have already cut playing cards in half sideways (IF I don't O-D on coffee before I get to the Range, LOL!). Both projectiles get a 72 grain charge of Goex 3Fg.

If your Pyro is getting older, or clumping, it won't burn right, and you'll wind-up with a shotgun-style "pattern".

While using conicals, remember that warm water & soap doesn't remove lead, so you'll need to treat the bore to a lead remover like Shooter's Choice along with a good brushing every-so-often when your groups open-up! Also change the nipple at the first sign of erosion while using the conicals :wink: to bring your groups closer together. You might have put the rifle away with an eroded nipple :hmm: .

Last resort--ship it to me and I'll test it for you for a couple months :blah: :rotf: :haha:

Dave

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Presumably you cast your own REAL's and perhaps your last batch was cast a bit cooler than normal, which would account for them being slightly under normal size. They really do need to fit pretty snug.
Smokin .50 also makes a good point about the Pyrodex. It may be getting a bit weak and not producing the "kick" needed to obturate the bullet base into the bore, which would exacerbate the undersize issue. They may do better if you increase the charge to 80 grains or so, maybe.

 

[BrownBear]

Presumably you cast your own REAL's and perhaps your last batch was cast a bit cooler than normal, which would account for them being slightly under normal size. They really do need to fit pretty snug.
Smokin .50 also makes a good point about the Pyrodex. It may be getting a bit weak and not producing the "kick" needed to obturate the bullet base into the bore, which would exacerbate the undersize issue. They may do better if you increase the charge to 80 grains or so, maybe.

I was going to guess it was a new batch of REAL's and there was a bit of alloy in it rather than pure lead, but yours is a good possibility too.

In any case, I'm betting the diameter and/or hardness are different than what you were shooting before.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Yes, most of the REAL's were fresh-cast. The Pyrodex was a brand-new can. I don't suspect leading as an issue as I keep the bore squeaky-clean. I've never looked into paper-patching...any info on PP the REALs?
I bought a box of Hornady .490s and some .015 patches and am going to see how it does with hem next session. I did shoot some of Steve's Great Plains bullets and they grouped OK. I seriously believe it was a bore/fit issue. These REALs were cast on a chilly spring day, so maybe the ARE undersized?
I will try the felt wads under the REALs. I also plan on using a hard-lube on them to see if that helps.

 

[William O.]

The REAL bullets have such a wide lube ring that I just roll a stiff blend of olive oil and beeswax lube onto them. They seem to work pretty well that way and my groups got a bit tighter with the addition of the fiber wads. I haven't tried the REALs in my 1:48 .54 though, only in my 50 caliber barrels, 1:32 & 1:60 ROT. The fast twist barrel has been shortened due to a bulge in the end so I've got to stuff a heavy load of powder in it to keep it from dropping too much before reaching the target but if I keep the charges low they group OK out of my slow twist. Keep at it, you'll figure it out.

 

[Stubert]

I also think leading might be the cause, I leaded up a .58 a few years back, real bad, using undersized minnies. It's not easy to see leading when you can only look in one end.

 

[Rhett Griffith]

+1 on the leading.

I once leaded up a T/C Hawken shooting Maxi-Hunters out of it. The rifle went from shooting .8" groups at 50 yards to shooting 8" groups at 50 yards. :shocked2: I fought it for months and never did figure out what was wrong until I had my gunsmith buddy reblue the barrel for me. The blueing solution made the lead just roll out of the barrel. After that, I cleaned it really well and accuracy was restored. :thumbsup:

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I'm glad that the last two folks also feel the same as I do. The following is for the Capt.'s benefit:

Here's something else to get rid of the leading in the bore: An over-sized bore brush. A brand-new .50 will work in a .50 rifle, but a USED .54 or .58 on a really good Range Rod set-up will do a better job scrubbing the lead out because of the larger surface area of the wider bristles.

Put some Shooter's Choice on a patch and soak the bore first, then scrub with the brush, then wet-patch with the cleaner, and repeat till the lead flakes disappear. You'll also note that the bore doesn't have those "streaks" in it after you dry patch & then inspect with a bore light.

I use the cleaner & brush trick AFTER first cleaning the BP fouling with the traditional warm water & soap (pumping) method. You've got to cut the grease first to get to the lead :wink: .

Take care & be well!

Dave

 

[CaptainKirk]

After that last disastrous shooting session, I cleaned the bore with Hoppes #9 Black Powder solvent and a 12 gauge bronze brush.(yeah, it was a TIGHT fit!!!) If you guys think I should use a more modern solvent to get "the lead out", I'll try it.
Bull, do you apply the beeswax mix while heated? I was thinking of heating a mixture of Emmert's Lube*, pouring it in a flat bottomed dish with REALs in it and using a "cookie cutter" after the mixture hardens. Yes? No?
Thanks for the tips.

*Emmert's Lube:
50% Beeswax
40% Crisco
10% Canola oil (or 5% Canola/5%Anhydrous Lanolin)

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

A 12 ga. brush! Wow, you must be pi$$ed! If you saw lead flakes coming out, the Hoppe's did the job, otherwise try again with a CF bore cleaner of your choosing. And maybe an overnight soak at that? Not sure if the black powder version of Hoppe's has any lead remover in it or not :idunno: or what concentration?

If you're lubing .50 cal conicals/maxies/reals consider locating a spent .50 BMG case, drilling-out the primer pocket on a drill press, and finding a dowel to use as a push-rod. The BMG case is a great "cookie-cutter" for Maxi's in a mixture of Bore Butter & Bee's Wax.

Make good smoke!

Dave

 

[Geraldo]

I didn't have much luck with REALs in a couple of different caliber rifles. The rifles shot RB or other conicals well, so I gave up on REALs.

If you want to get into paper patching, I suggest searching for member IdahoRon on this forum and the muzzleloading section of the casting site we both visit. He's got tutorials with good pics of the process.

While I agree that this sounds like your REALs were too small or that the barrel is leaded, did you shoot your friend's rifle that day? Sometimes we just have a bad day. I've also found that in middle age that the need for a new eyeglass prescription shows up most noticably at the range.

 

[Greyfeather]

I bought a .54 rifle once that was so leaded from shooting conicals that I resorted to a Outers Foul out, They really work easily, A little searching on the web and you will find info on home making these. Reverse plate the lead to a rod in the barrel.
John

 

[Greg Hardy]

You could also try a method I read about years ago and used to some good effect. Hydrogen Peroxide. Plug off the drum or snail, pour in H2O2 allow to set for just about a minute then dump it out. Scrub with brush and clean the bejeebers out of it. The Peroxide gets under all the fouling, powder and lead, and lifts it off. You have to clean and oil like crazy because of the corrosive properties of the Peroxide. I had to do this to a Mosin Nagant I got at a department store for 35 bucks. The cosmolene, powder and metal fouling was so bad, it looked like there was no rifling at all. Just happy I didn't try firing it, because after the cleaning, there was the rifling, in pretty good shape. I presume it was cosmolene or some sort of packing grease. Looked like it hadn't been cleaned before some Comrade had to defend Stalingrad. Or after for that matter.

 

[50cal.cliff]

When you notice changes in your rifles performance the first thing you have to say is what has changed.

Did I clean like I always do?

Was it stored as usual?

Did I start off the session as usual?

I am going to guess if you hadn't changed any of the above then it had to do a lot with this statement below.

Yes, most of the REAL's were fresh-cast. The Pyrodex was a brand-new can. I don't suspect leading as an issue as I keep the bore squeaky-clean. I've never looked into paper-patching...any info on PP the REALs?
I bought a box of Hornady .490s and some .015 patches and am going to see how it does with hem next session. I did shoot some of Steve's Great Plains bullets and they grouped OK. I seriously believe it was a bore/fit issue. These REALs were cast on a chilly spring day, so maybe the ARE undersized?
I will try the felt wads under the REALs. I also plan on using a hard-lube on them to see if that helps.

With out proper sealing of the BP by the bullet they would tend to fire/group differently.

With BP I have found it is consistency, consistency, consistency! I recently had a problem with no fire and hang fire. I remembered I had not cleaned the same way the last time I cleaned and the gun was telling me it did not like my new cleaning method. I stopped and field cleaned and changed the ole gals whole perspective!

In the past I have shot .18 patches and a .490 ball in my 50 cal. I can also put a .495 down with the same patch. I have to carefully hand walk the ramrod but it can be done.

The .495 ball has much more kick created by the tighter fit and has an awsomely tight group!