What makes a TN rifle?

[WadePatton]

Would like to see some discussion amongst this learned gathering as to what defines a TN Rifle-as compared to a Southern Rifle or Carolina Rifle.

Is it simply a KY Rifle with iron in place of brass?

Are some areas of the gun more open to variation than others? Wood for instance--seems to me that walnut, cherry, persimmon, ash, and maybe maple would be quite correct. Maple certainly has grown here for a long time, but somebuddy said it wasn't here then--are they full of it?

Comparing kits from one source I found the only difference in TN, early TN, and Southern to be drop at the heel.

I've handled a few originals now, but didn't make specific notes at the time. I'll be able to examine that bunch again.

Although I'm not attempting to build a 100% PC/AC rifle with this first one, I do want it to be similar to any subsequent rifles I do build which might have more historic accuracy involved.

 

[Mike Brooks]

You're falling victim to hype from parts dealers. Your best bet is to invest in some books on the subject. Jerry Nobles 4 volume set will start you in the right direction.

 

[WadePatton]

You're falling victim to hype from parts dealers. Your best bet is to invest in some books on the subject. Jerry Nobles 4 volume set will start you in the right direction.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'm not into hype. That's why I posed the question here. Learning from the collective. This morning I found a "TN rifle" with a 60" bbl in 38.

I'm buying parts one at a time and shaping my own wood--with some guidance by a guy who has a 30 or so years with this stuff.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Mike is, or course, correct, but we all get mental images when a rifle style is mentioned (though we don't all get the SAME mental images).

It's a crazy world.

Why is it Tennessee Rifles were made in Tenessee but Kentucky rifles were made in Pennsylvania?

The Bean family of Jonesboro produced some representative "Tennessee" rifles. You can Google them up - but beware. I just came across an "original" that had what appeared to be a modern L&R Durs Egg style knock-off lock so I didn't post it here as an example. Maybe yes, maybe no.

 

[J.D.]

You're falling victim to hype from parts dealers. Your best bet is to invest in some books on the subject. Jerry Nobles 4 volume set will start you in the right direction.

A simple search on the net should yield some information on TN rifles. However, there is no better way to verify that information than through good research material written by knowledgeable authors. Though I have not read Noble's books, I have heard they are very good.

 

[Packdog]

First, I agree with Mike. Advertising material is just that, advertising. You have to sift through and figure out which text is true and which text that is selling parts.

You ask about the drop and difference between kits....The TN kits you mentioned have different trigger guards and different buttplates if I remember correctly. Compare where the comb line points rather than the drop.

A good start point if you want to learn the differences between the various Southern styles is to get Ray McKnight's DVD. "Southern Rifles Plain and Fancy". He covers about 25 guns and explains the traits of each style beginning in NC and ending up with 3 or 4 TN rifles. It's a great deal at $25. I also agree, Jerry's books are the best for learning about Southern rifles but the set will be around $150 now and he only sells them as a set so I have been told.

What makes a TN rifle and in my humble opinion? That is a very broad question. There are at least 3 different schools/styles that would be considered TN rifles. I think most refer to E.TN when they say TN rifle. As Stumpkiller said, we each have a different image in our head.
Upper E. TN Rifle Characteristics.... They have mostly forged iron hardware but sometime brass. English styled locks. If there is a patchbox it will most likely be a variation of what is called the banana or cigar box. Sometimes a grease hole. A long tang that extends down to the comb and the width will vary. On most better made upper E.TN guns the tang extends up and over the comb sometimes to the buttplate comb extension. The buttplate will be a deep crescent shape with a long comb plate extension compared to other styles. There is a very concave shape to the wood on the upper comb. This concave shape is also present between the upper lock panels and the barrel tang. Double set trigger are the norm. The front triggers have a very distinct look with a half round lob protruding from the trigger plate. Rear triggers will form almost a circle for a finger to fit in. Triggers are a sure fire give away if a gun was made in TN and are very different from NC guns.
Guns made in and around the Chattanooga area (Soddy-Daisey) have a very distinctive Diamond shape to the stock. Most of these tangs are straight and stop just short of the comb.
On most E. TN guns of the E. TN school, you can make an imaginary line following the comb and it will point just over the top of the breech end of the barrel. Barrels are mostly in the 42" to 44" range. Can be swamped but straight is more common. Original swamped barrels are for the most part so slightly swamped you have to measure to verify. Tapered barrels are OK too.
I'm sure you can find an exception for everything I said except the English style lock. We are speaking of a style gun that began in the late 1700's and was pretty much made right up till the civil war. In some areas it continued to modern times so we are talking a LOT of possibilities and different makers.

 

[WadePatton]

WHOOHOO! Packdog wins the prize! :applause: :applause: :applause:

I asked here because I thought that some folks here would have a good idea formed in their own mind and not be hesitant to share. I figger that's what we're here for. But at the same time I don't want to start a big drawn out argument either. And I'm not trying to take money from the authors or dealers of texts on the subject, as I'm sure discussing their research and writing may lead to more sales. More importantly, I'm sure that there are learned folks in the field who haven't published a book or video from who we can learn as well.

As said in my other "TN rifle" thread, I'm building a hunter with TN styling, but I might want to go full-on "PC" for my next one. IDEALLY for me is to build something that my own personal lineage might have carried at some point in time. Most of them are from Scotland and Ireland and came by way of VA and NC and the Pattons were in Middle TN by the early 1800's. John Patton, my GGGGGfather was born in NC or VA in 1767 and died in Middle TN in 1845. His father was born in PA 1742 and died in VA in the early 1800's. His father was born in Ireland abt 1689 and died in VA abt 1750...and then there's all the uncles and my Mom's side of the family.

Back to Rifles! Yes, I can buy books and videos, but I'd rather spend that money on locks and guards. Mr. Anderson has some cast parts he designed and I'll probably use them on the first one...I know the learning curve is steep at first and has no end.

Thanks again Packdog for breaking the ice and sharing some thoughts. I think it's good to learn the general guidelines (outside the limitations of catalog presentations) even if I'm not going to strictly follow them this time--and even I know there are exceptions. Heck, I'm usually one of 'em. :v

 

[Packdog]

Who is Mr. Anderson? What Southern parts does he have castings of?
Cheers,
Ken

 

[WadePatton]

John "Crow Killer" Anderson--per the Club News section of Muzzle Blasts, September 1970. He was on the cover as well. (I just dumb lucked onto that issue on ebay when I was trying to find his number again.) He's one of the charter members of the Elk River Long Rifles, Tullahoma. The club started in the sixties. He was having castings made at one point in time, but has semi-retired the moulds at present. He has a guard and buttplate in stock-but I don't know how many. He also designed some flint strikers of brass (with steel of course). He does have a supply of those.

Next time I visit him I'll ask how many rifles he's built and secure some cast parts and inquire as to their development as well as the remaining inventory.

There were a few of his rifles on the firing line at the last club shoot. John is pushing 75.

 

[cptleo1]

PACKDOG is the man on these type rifles.

I would also check with Dennis Glazner at
http://www.gillespierifles.com/

He has done a TON of research on the type and time period and location of the weapon you are looking for.

He is a great guy with bunches of pictures of well researched originals.

Good Luck