What is "great condition" when talking about a used muzzleloader?

[Pacobillie]

I was about to purchase a used Lyman GPR, sight unseen, from a fellow member of a firearms forum. The Seller had described it as being in "great condition". After asking me whether I was willing to pay his asking price, and my replying that "i would, providing the gun was in satisfactory condition", the seller sent me pictures. Lo and behold, the pictures showed obvious rusty spots on the muzzle, inside the bore, on the tang, around the nipple, as well as in the hammer recess. I offered the guy less than the asking price, and he acted as if I had insulted him. To me, the clear presence of rust in that many locations does not fit the definition of "great condition", although it was obvious that the gun had seen very little use. Am I being overly fussy, or am I correct that any significant amount of corrosion on a firearm takes it out of the "great condition" category?

 

[rafterob]

Great is better than good, right? But not quite excellent. Excellent would be considered like new condition, but used. Good should be 80% like new, so I would think Great should be 90-95%. Any visible rusting that has corroded the metal would take it down to the good-very good category. Bore rust with pitting puts it in the fair range.

 

[Lonegun1894]

I agree with you, rust isnt"great" on anything. We all know that BP causes corrosion, but we also all know how to prevent it by cleaning and taking care of our guns. This possible seller doesn't sound like he took care of that rifle very well, so I wouldn't have paid "great" price either unless it was something I just could not live without for whatever reason.

 

[David W.]

No over reactions. If there is any rust at all, it is not in great condition. Having rust present puts it in fair condition, at best.

 

[Coot]

Condition can be very subjective - one man's "good" is another man's "fair" especially if the first man is the seller & the second a buyer. The 'Blue Book' has a photo section that helps to visualize the differences. Things are further complicated by some using NRA labels & others a percentage system & the difference between antique & modern guns. When not practical to be there in person, lots of good pictures help - TOW generally sets a good standard for pictures. "Rusty" doesn't so great.

 

[Pacobillie]

I agree with you, rust isnt"great" on anything. We all know that BP causes corrosion, but we also all know how to prevent it by cleaning and taking care of our guns. This possible seller doesn't sound like he took care of that rifle very well, so I wouldn't have paid "great" price either unless it was something I just could not live without for whatever reason.

I agree entirely. My concern is that a lot of people seem to believe that rust is unavoidable in muzzleloaders, because of the type of propellant used, and its corrosiveness. Therefore, they seem to lower their standards when describing the condition of a muzzleloader. I should have been more explicit, but my question is really about whether the standards that apply to other firearms, when describing their condition, apply to muzzleloaders as well; or whether we should be more lenient in the case of muzzleloaders, for the reasons stated above. Thus far, the consessus seems to be that the same standards do indeed apply.

 

[David W.]

I agree with you, rust isnt"great" on anything. We all know that BP causes corrosion, but we also all know how to prevent it by cleaning and taking care of our guns. This possible seller doesn't sound like he took care of that rifle very well, so I wouldn't have paid "great" price either unless it was something I just could not live without for whatever reason.

I agree entirely. My concern is that a lot of people seem to believe that rust is unavoidable in muzzleloaders, because of the type of propellant used, and its corrosiveness. Therefore, they seem to lower their standards when describing the condition of a muzzleloader. I should have been more explicit, but my question is really about whether the standards that apply to other firearms, when describing their condition, apply to muzzleloaders as well; or whether we should be more lenient in the case of muzzleloaders, for the reasons stated above. Thus far, the consessus seems to be that the same standards do indeed apply.

No, one should not be more lenient for BP firearms. Rust is rust is rust. I have rifles that are thirty years old with absolutely NO rust. Corrosive propellant(s) should not be a factor.

 

[123.DieselBenz]

Great = no rust!

 

[ChrisHarris]

If I can see rust on the outside of a gun, I immediately think the person must not have taken very good care of their gun. Then I wonder where else there might be rust lurking.

 

[vern faulkner]

I have to admit that I am kind of fussy when it comes to gun cleaning and care. To me a rusty rifle tells me more about the owner than it does about the rifle.

vern

 

[tg]

I do not think you are to fussy and when buying a used gun you should insist and offer if selling a reasonable trial period to look over and fire the gun and return if not satisfactory splitting the second shipping is customary, I have always felt anyone I sell a used gun to should have time to see if it meets with their expectations, less experienced buyers may need some "learnin'" about a few things before they know if they have a good "deal" or not, particularly if one is thinking about the PC/HC thing as well as the basic quality issues of the gun.Often some ML forums are hard places to get answers from well experiences folks but generaly there are enough knowledgable guys who will respond to questions to satisfy the less learneds queries.

 

[ohio ramrod]

"Great condition" is an item you are trying to sell! "Poor condition" is an item you are wanting to buy. We all have our perspectives and some people are more realistic than others. :idunno: I have bought many poor condition items that could be easily restored and resold at a small profit. But I would never personally sell a restored item to some one who could not handle and examine it first. :idunno:

 

[Dave K]

Welcome to muzzleloaders! No you are not being fussy. It is a shame that many sellers will say ANYTHING to convince a buyer to buy. I have no idea why so many sellers, seem to avoid the obvious answer to a question. Then of course, many seem think you are hard to do deal because you even ask about condition.They think you are being fussy because you question the rust or obvious use conditions on what they have to sell. Some of which may be very normal because of use, some maybe from lack of care and then it is abuse. When buying, I also love the phrase "good condition for it's age". Just what does that mean? For me, good condition is just that, good condition. If it is good condition for it's age, what should it be like for it's age? I am too slow to understand that.

 

[Otter]

First off, I agree with most of the replies . . . you are not being picky at all. It's your money, after all.

But I have said to friends before - "For $75 that gun is in great condition." I have also said - "For $400 that gun should be better than great condition."

Kinda depends on where the price-point is but if he's calling it "great condition" it better not have any rust on it anywhere, unless he only wants $75 . . . then snag it.

 

[hanshi]

Great condition, to me, would mean perfect bore, no stock dings of any consequence and no rust - though it may appear used yet well cared for.

Rust, dings and/or rough bore is fair at best.

 

[Glenfilthie]

To me it means that it looks like it just came out of the box.

This sport is stupid, actually. You can fire a gun once and it is automatically 'used' and it's value diminished by 50%.

 

[hanshi]

Depends on the gun you fire and where it came from. :v

 

[RedFeather]

It's certainly not limited to muzzle loaders. I have seen listings that start off "Great Condition! Must See!!!" Then the description proceeds to list rust on barrel "that should clean off with a little oil and steel wool", cracked stock that "has been professionally repaired - can't hardly notice it at all", missing the sights and "custom stock" (crudely carved picture of some small mammal?) All joking aside, I have seen almost everything mentioned (except the small mammal). And there's honest wear VS neglect, too.

 

[Blackpowdersmoke]

If I can see rust on the outside of a gun, I immediately think the person must not have taken very good care of their gun. Then I wonder where else there might be rust lurking.

That's pretty much how I see it. If they don't take care of the outside, they probably didn't take care of the inside! :td:

BPS

 

[RushCC]

No over reactions. If there is any rust at all, it is not in great condition. Having rust present puts it in fair condition, at best.

Exactly what I would have said.