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Virgin flintlock owner first impressions

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kentop

32 Cal.
Joined
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I bought this flintlock pistol at last week's gun show in Tucson, AZ simply because I am fascinated with muzzleloaders. I spent $120.00 on the thing.
pc120132u.jpg

After cleaning the pistol and making sure it wouldn't blow up in my face the first time I fired it, it was time to go to the store and spend even more money on supplies that I needed to shoot it. I took my pistol to a local store nearby called "Thundersticks" Black Powder Purveyors. They were glad to sell me everything I needed to shoot. Total cost of supplies exceeded the total cost of the pistol! But future costs will be minimal; ball, powder, and patches mainly.
pc170007.jpg


Everything you need to shoot them thar redcoats. Black powder comes in different "grinds" like automatic drip or percolator grind. FFg, or 2F is for rifles. FFFg is for pistols. FFFFg is the finest grain and is for priming the frizzen pan only. Everyone I talked to said "for gods sake, never, ever use 4Fg powder in the barrel. You will die." same with smokeless powder.


pc170008.jpg

Lead shot. You cannot shoot .50cal shot in a .50cal rifle or pistol because the patch you wrap around the shot takes up space. They sell patches in different thicknesses. The patches you see here are .010in thick. So, if you have a .50 caliber barrel, you need a .48 caliber bullet to fit down the barrel (.010 on all sides of the ball increases the diameter .020in). So, I bought 100 rounds of .48 cal hornaday lead ball. These things aren't perfectly round ball bearings either. They are globs of lead with lots of imperfections. Kinda like really round rocks. The patches are "pre-lubed" with something that smells strongly of peppermint. In olden days, you would use bed ticking and spit or bear grease or some other kind of animal fat to grease the patch. These patches are supposedly non-flammible, but after shooting the pistol, I found the patches smoldering on the ground, easily hot enough to start a brush fire.


pc170003.jpg

This is what you need to load the pistol. The top one with the wooden ball is a ball starter. In case of a real tight fit with the ball and patch, this thing gives you leverage to cram the ball into the barrel. After the ball in pushed just inside the barrel, you then take a ramrod and shove it all the way down, but not too strongly. You actually want a little air between the grains so combustion happens quicker. What you don't want is an air gap between ball and powder. If you have an air gap, it acts just like a plugged barrel and will explode and kill you. So, you make damn sure the ball is seated firmly (but not TOO firmly).


pc170006.jpg

These are the two types of flints available. The lower beige one is made of agate. The upper black one is your typical black flint from England. I used to dig up flint stones at the little farm in England where I grew up all the time. I could really use them now. I also remember that the walls of Framlingham castle (a nearby castle in Suffolk, U.K.) were made almost entirely of broken up flint stones and masonry . You could literally break flint chips off of the castle walls for flints. These particular little chips of flint cost me about 4 bucks a pop. You look for a side with a straight narrow edge to strike against the frizzen. They make a tool, a flint chipping hammer to make your own flints, but I balked at buying one of those.


pc170012.jpg

In this not so focused picture, you can see the pistol at half cock with the frizzen closed over the pan. The flint lines up perfectly over the left 3/4 of the frizzen. A piece of leather is wrapped around the flint for the hammer to grip. It doesn't hold the flint very tightly, probably because the flint needs to move a little bit every time it hits the frizzen to maintain optimum contact. I could literally shake the flint out of the hammer and that's after hand tightening on the hammer screw as hard as I could. You definitely get the feeling that the flint is the weakest link in the chain. Dare I say, delicate? I get visions of the flint flying out of the hammer when I squeeze the trigger. I will have to check the muzzleloading forums online. I don't know if it is common with flintlocks or not.


O.K. Put it all together and how does it fire? Took it out to Reddington pass and used it with the same target I use for pistols. Stood about 25 feet away. I can generally hit the target about half the time with my Tokarev TT-33 pistol at that distance. The procedure for shooting went this way:

1. Pour 30 grains of 3Fg powder into the measure.
2. Pour the measure down the barrel. Never, ever ( it seems that there's lots of never-evers with flintlocks) pour powder directly from the powder can into the barrel. If the barrel is hot, it could turn your can of black powder into a grenade.
3. Take one ball with a patch and the ball starter and cram it into the end of the pistol barrel, holding the pistol barrel vertical. It actually slides quite snugly and easily. You really don't need the giant wooden ball and stick they sold me.
4. Take another patch and place it over the ball to keep it from rolling out of the barrel when it goes horizontal.
5. Take the ramrod and ram it home firmly (but not TOO firmly). Just enough to know that the ball was stopped by the powder.
6. Make sure the hammer is at half cock.
7. Open the frizzen.
8. Pour just enough blackpowder from the priming measure onto the frizzen pan so that it doesn't cover the hole going into the barrel.
9. Take the concealed pick from the priming measure and jab it into the hole, making sure air, and consequently a spark will shoot all the way into the barrel once the priming powder ignites.
10. Close the frizzen over the frizzen pan.
11. Adjust the flint. Make sure it is even with the frizzen and tighten the hammer screw on top to make it snug as possible. At this point you can carry the weapon anywhere at any angle. It's ready to shoot and you don't have to keep it pointed anywhere. You could even holster it. You cannot squeeze the trigger and have the hammer fall at this point. It is "safe".
12. Cock the hammer and aim it. I don't know about anybody else's flintlocks, but I could not cock this pistol with my thumb while aiming the weapon. It took two hands. The right hand holding the pistol, the left hand moving the hammer to full cock. Aiming: In olden days, it was "ungentlemanly" to put sights on a pistol because it gave unfair advantage. You were just supposed to point in in the general direction and have at it. Most dueling pistols came with two barrels, a target barrel which was rifled and had sights so you could practice with it, and a dueling barrel which was a smooth bore without sights. Hoity toity gentlemen would burn off nervous energy by practicing shooting the stems off wine glasses with the rifled barrel the night before defending one's honor the next day with the smooth bore barrel. So, you could say that my pistol is a "target" pistol instead of a dueling piece because it has a rifled barrel and sights.
13. Shoot. The first time I shot this pistol. I was very impressed. Big flash, absolutely no recoil. The gun is very, very heavy to begin with. It balances very well. When I pulled the trigger, I could see the white puff of smoke as the 4Fg powder in the frizzen pan ignited and the gun fired simultaneously. No pause whatsoever. I was expecting a pause as the flame from the pan traveled through the hole and ignited the barrel powder. It was like shooting a modern gun. Instant blast. The barrel swung to the left as the ball exited the muzzle and the bullet hit the target on the left side right at the "neck" of the man silhouette target I was aiming at (25 feet away). The gun was steady as a rock. My view of the target was never obscured by white smoke after I had fired (weather conditions, clear with a 0 to 5mph wind in my face). Knowing that the barrel traveled left when I fired it means that I simply compensate to the right when I shoot it again.

I went up to Reddington Pass with a friend so that he could call 911 if I died when I fired it for the first time and I had him load and shoot it so that I could see how it fired. Every time he fired it (30g load), the pistol had this huge orange flame jump out of the barrel about a foot long with lots of smoke. I can't wait to go again and film it. It's very impressive. Expect the youtube video soon.

So, my final impressions of the flintlock pistol is this. It's a great shooter. I could actually go hunting with it. It's definitely accurate enough. When hunting, you only get one shot at an animal or bird anyway, then it runs off if you miss. So, reloading is not really an issue when you hunt. Primitive as it is, it's fast, deady and accurate. At close range, which is where pistols are used, this thing will do more damage to you than a .45 will. It's a one-shot weapon, like a bolt action rifle or a traditional single shot shotgun and equal to either at close range. (I imagine that after about 25 feet, that ball would spin out of control like a golf ball hooking or slicing.) But, I am very surprised at how deadly and shootable it is.
 
First, I hope when you tested that flint and made sparks in that picture, the cap was on that can of powder. :shocked2:

I just looked again and it maybe a reflection I see on the table and not sparks, if so, disregard the above statement.

In this not so focused picture, you can see the pistol at half cock with the frizzen closed over the pan. The flint lines up perfectly over the left 3/4 of the frizzen. A piece of leather is wrapped around the flint for the hammer to grip. It doesn't hold the flint very tightly, probably because the flint needs to move a little bit every time it hits the frizzen to maintain optimum contact. I could literally shake the flint out of the hammer and that's after hand tightening on the hammer screw as hard as I could. You definitely get the feeling that the flint is the weakest link in the chain. Dare I say, delicate? I get visions of the flint flying out of the hammer when I squeeze the trigger. I will have to check the muzzleloading forums online. I don't know if it is common with flintlocks or not.

No you want your flint to fit tight and not move. Change to a different piece of leather, a thicker leather. I like a nice piece of Elk leather and a flat topped flint. Snug it down square with the frizzen. After a couple of shots you may find you need to reposition and retighten the flint but always check it before firing and make sure it's tight.

I've had them loosen and once in a while break but I never had a flint fly out of the cock jaws.
 
Thanks for the tip on the flint leather. The top jaw screw has a slot in it for a knifeblade or screwdriver but I'm afraid of torquing down the screw too much and stripping the screw.
 
I've been shooting patched round ball for a few years now, and I've notice one thing:

If you're worried about your ball moving once you go horizontal, your patch is probably too small. Also, you can load .50 shot in a .50 barrel...just not a round ball :)
 
kentop
That top jaw screw can take a lot of torque without stripping the threads.

Actually the thing to be concerned about is getting a screw driver that fits the slot.
I've seen folks really booger up the top jaw screw by trying to use oversized tapered screw drivers.

Anyway, that screw needs to be tight enough that the flint does not move when it hits the frizzen.
 
It sound like you need a lot of help in understanding the flint lock pistol and Black powder shooting. Check out black powder clubs in your area, these fellows will help you learn and enjoy the sport. :thumbsup:
 
redwing said:
It sound like you need a lot of help in understanding the flint lock pistol and Black powder shooting. Check out black powder clubs in your area, these fellows will help you learn and enjoy the sport. :thumbsup:

That's why I'm here...to learn from the experts. I'm also looking around Tucson, Arizona for clubs, etc. I got a lot of good starter advice from the good folks at Thundersticks. I'll be lurking and learning.
 
Just a few suggestions to clear up some misconceptions you may have.

.480 ball and .010 patches are to loose a combo in most 50cal barrels. A good starting point is .490 ball and .015 pillow ticking patches. You want a snug compressed fit and you won't have those smoldering patches.

4fg in the barrel won't kill you but 3fg works better and you can use it to prime also.

Do not put another patch down on top of the ball. Not only is it not necessasary it can be dangerous.

A flint hammer is not to make new flints but to sharpen the one you have.

Real black powder burns better with moderate to firm compression.

Flintlocks are a hoot to shoot. Suggest you pick up a good book on muzzleloading and read it.
 
DennisA said:
Just a few suggestions to clear up some misconceptions you may have.

.480 ball and .010 patches are to loose a combo in most 50cal barrels. A good starting point is .490 ball and .015 pillow ticking patches. You want a snug compressed fit and you won't have those smoldering patches.

4fg in the barrel won't kill you but 3fg works better and you can use it to prime also.

Do not put another patch down on top of the ball. Not only is it not necessasary it can be dangerous.

A flint hammer is not to make new flints but to sharpen the one you have.

Real black powder burns better with moderate to firm compression.

Flintlocks are a hoot to shoot. Suggest you pick up a good book on muzzleloading and read it.

I agree, flintlocks are a hoot to shoot. For me, the joy is in the learning and experiencing. Nobody should have to become expert at shooting muzzleloaders before actually shooting one. Heck, backwoods hillbillies learnt how to make and use flintlocks before they even started school (please, no jokes about starting school at 16 years old. Hillbillies deserve a lot more respect than they get). It's not rocket science. Some people turn it into rocket science. Learning about weight and hardness of projectiles, mixes of gun powder, barrel pressure, velocities, etc., before you even touch a muzzle sucks all the fun out of it. Grab a gun, try it out, then go in search of the answers. You'll learn more and it will mean more to you.

I tried using two greased .010" patches wrapped around a .48" ball but it wouldn't go down the barrel even with pounding on the ball starter. But, I will try the .49" ball with a .010 patch and see how hard it is to cram it down the barrel. The good folks at Thundersticks trading here in Tucson sold me what they considered the proper ball and thickness for my pistol (which I brought with me to the store).

I have read and talked to a few "experts" about shooting flintlocks and they say to put another patch on top of the ball to keep it from rolling out of the barrel. Now, how loose is your ball in the barrel if there is a possibility of that happening? Maybe you use the second patch if you are firing bird shot or nails or rock salt or something loose and that is where I am getting confused.

I also wonder about my "snub nosed flintlock". The barrel is rifled and it is only 8" long. The rifiling is very new but very shallow, which makes me think that it is intended for round ball. I would think that a short barrel would mean lower pressure buildup in the barrel, lower muzzle velocity, and consequently, a shorter effective distance. There is a mathematical formula for figuring out those parameters, but I would rather learn it the hard way, by experimenting with different measures of powder and actually pulling a trigger.

As far as picking up a book on Muzzleloading, there are literally hundreds available. Howzabout a recommendation? And thanks for all your great info.
 
An expert told you to over patch a ball so it would not roll out. :rotf: I think the expert was talking about a smooth bore not a rifled firearm. :( As has been said, get some good advise. Try getting away from the "Hill Billy" legends not true then not true now. :snore:
 
I can't see your barrel so I don't know the rifling depth. Most roundball barrels have deep rifling not shallow. Shallow rifling you may get by with the .010 and 490ball. In any case examine your patch after shooting if it is torn up and burnt on the sides you have too loose a combo.
A second patch down over the ball could easily move forward and become a bore obstruction. If you were loading loose shot or nails or rock salt :wink: you would use a wad not a patch over the powder and an overshot wad over the shot not a patch.
Hillbilly kids generally had a "pap" or "granpap" to show them the right way so they didn't blow their fool head off.
By the way the advise about not using smokeless powder was right on.
As for a good book get Sam Fadals book on loading and shooting muzzle loaders.
It isn't rocket science but having a little good info beats having a lot of bad info everytime.
 
By all means get that flint tight in the cock jaws. A loose flint means misfires & broken flints. Most .50 rifled bores do well with a .490 ball and a .015 - .018 pillow ticking patch. Use a good patch lube (with unlubed patches), spit works well. The prb should fit snugly but not so tight where real force is necessary to seat it.
 
I will look for one of the many Sam Fadala titles currently in print. When I was growing up in England, many of my neighbor englishmen talked about hillbillies as being backwards, inbred, ignorant, blood feuding yokels, except that they didn't call them hillbillies, they called them highlanders. Even the lowland scots clans badmouthed them. That English distaste for cultures not their own infected America when the clearances started.
I will get a decent pic of the barrel posted in the next day or two.
 
As promised, here is a picture of the muzzle of my flintlock pistol

muzzle2.jpg


As you can see, the lands and grooves are .050 caliber apart. When I mic it from land to land, the barrel measures .495 and groove to groove .505 so I'm guessing that the rifling is pretty shallow and you can tell that it's a new barrel.

I'm confused about the whole shallow groove deep groove thing. Which groove is best suited for which ammo?
 
Generally speaking deep rifling (.007 to .010 on a side)is better for roundball and shallower rifling is better for conical bullets. That is not an absolute as you can use a roundball in a shallow groove barrel just takes more playing to get the right ball patch combo. Given your bore dimensions I'd try a .490 ball and some .010 and some .015 patching to see which gives the best results.
First though you are going to have to cone the muzzle of your barrel a bit to be able to start the ball and patch. Squared off muzzles and rifling just don't get it with patched round ball. There are several threads on here about how to do this.
By the way know the dimmensions I gave for ball and patch combos total more than your bore size. They are supposed to as you need a tight seal and the cloth compresses somewhat.
 
Just to look at the barrel, it sure looks like the grooves are deeper than that. You might want to recheck your measurements.
 
I think what DennisA meant is that the muzzle of the barrel needs to be crowned. Coning would work too but it means something very different. It should still be safe to shoot as is, but will probably have a tendency to tear patches during loading.

It looks like to me that the bore needs a good scrubbing.

Congratulations on your new acquisition. It should provide many hours of enjoyment.
 
I picked up some .49 balls yesterday along with some .015 patches. What you say about crowning or coning the end of the barrel makes sense. A .48 ball should fit with two .010 patches but it doesn't, probably because the patches were hanging up on the muzzle. I will look into that. Thanks for all the great info. I'm hoping to get out and shoot with the different ball and patch combos tomorrow morning. If I don't, then it will be after Christmas. I will also post videos on Youtube when I do and post a link on this thread. Thanks again. That rust in the barrel appeared almost overnight after I scrubbed it in soapy water. I guess I should have dried and oiled the barrel afterwards. DUH!
 
I agree.
Those sharp edges at the muzzle will tare up about any patch on a patched ball that is loaded into that barrel.

IMO, muzzleloading barrels don't have to have a really fancy crown but the sharp edges of the rifling must be removed, making a nice smooth radius.

Strange as it may sound some 220 grit wet/dry (black) silicon carbide sandpaper and ones thumb can work miracles.
Just tare off a 1 X 1 inch piece and lay it on the muzzle. Then use your thumb to push it down into the bore. Rotate the thumb back and forth while you slowly rotate the barrel.
Rotating the barrel evens out the material removal and keeps you from removing too much in one place.

Continue to do this, changing paper when it stops cutting, until there is a nice radius that extends at least to the bottom of the grooves.

When your done a light touch up with a cold bluing product like Birchwood Casey Perma Blue will blend in the crown with the muzzle.
 

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