Using conicals in Le Page .44

[nkbj]

What's the rate of twist and the rifling geometry look like in those rascals?

 

[F.G. Ford]

It is quite fortunate that the original poster did not take lessons on pulling hand grenade pins :haha:
Fred

 

[TFoley]

What's the rate of twist and the rifling geometry look like in those rascals?

I've only ever fired somebody else's, but the rate of twist of the rifling IS designed to stabilize a patched round ball of around 125gr or so - ie, ordinary .44cal BP fodder. With Tim's gun I can shoot over 90x100 all day long. The instructions say - 'We recommend the use of a patched ball of suitable calibre. This arm is NOT designed to shoot any other form of projectile, and to do so might cause damage to the arm or possible injury to the shooter.'

Shooting a long bullet that is almost twice as heavy - as I noted - is never going to give the shooter a 'whoopee' moment.

Put it this way, from a rifle-shooting POV -

You have a .45cal rifle with a 1:60 twist, optimised for ball shooting because when it was invented, that is what there was to shoot.

Now you load it with a R.E.A.L. bullet at twice the weight - something that has been discussed here gazillions of times.

The usual result?

Erratic shooting - and I'm being polite here.

Why?

Because a heavy elongated projectile needs a much faster rate of twist rifling to correctly stabilize it.

The same goes for the target pistols of the mid-19th century, particularly those derived from duelling pistols, as the LePage was. At that time - the late 1820's 1830's - there was no other form of bullet than the ball, so it was made to shoot that projectile.

When elongated bullets came along, did they change?

Nossir, they did not change.

They shot ball back then, and still, in the hands of the very best pistol shots in the world, they STILL shoot ball.

End of story.

tac

 

[azmntman]

'We recommend the use of a patched ball of suitable calibre. This arm is NOT designed to shoot any other form of projectile, and to do so might cause damage to the arm or possible injury to the shooter.'

Excellent! This should have come up very near the front of this thread. I didnt know and have above average IQ and wouldnt have appreciated a "bashing for asking".

Very informative, how many of us buy a used gun with no paperwork/instructions?

 

[Sdeve999]

'We recommend the use of a patched ball of suitable calibre. This arm is NOT designed to shoot any other form of projectile, and to do so might cause damage to the arm or possible injury to the shooter.'

Excellent! This should have come up very near the front of this thread. I didnt know and have above average IQ and wouldnt have appreciated a "bashing for asking".

Very informative, how many of us buy a used gun with no paperwork/instructions?

That makes sense. (Indeed, the pistol was purchased second hand, without any instructions.) The problem is that makers of all sorts of things, and very much so with firearms, include all sorts of warnings not to depart from what their guidance is. The result is things like the incredibly heavy 'liability' triggers on modern firearms, constantly reducing maximum loads in nitro powered firearms reloading manuals, or various things that 'may cause cancer in California'. One example is that in the version of Vihtavouri reloading manual gives the maximum load for 155 grain Sierra bullet in .308 as 44.2 grains of N140 whereas F/TR shooters accept 46 grains as a standard accuracy load. It's things like this that make me want to know the facts behind the 'because I say so.' Informed decisions are so much more likely to be better decisions.

 

[TFoley]

'We recommend the use of a patched ball of suitable calibre. This arm is NOT designed to shoot any other form of projectile, and to do so might cause damage to the arm or possible injury to the shooter.'

Excellent! This should have come up very near the front of this thread. I didnt know and have above average IQ and wouldnt have appreciated a "bashing for asking".

Very informative, how many of us buy a used gun with no paperwork/instructions?

That makes sense. (Indeed, the pistol was purchased second hand, without any instructions.) The problem is that makers of all sorts of things, and very much so with firearms, include all sorts of warnings not to depart from what their guidance is. The result is things like the incredibly heavy 'liability' triggers on modern firearms, constantly reducing maximum loads in nitro powered firearms reloading manuals, or various things that 'may cause cancer in California'. One example is that in the version of Vihtavouri reloading manual gives the maximum load for 155 grain Sierra bullet in .308 as 44.2 grains of N140 whereas F/TR shooters accept 46 grains as a standard accuracy load. It's things like this that make me want to know the facts behind the 'because I say so.' Informed decisions are so much more likely to be better decisions.

With respect, THIS book should be your very next purchase - 'The Definitive Guide to Shooting Muzzle-loading Pistols', by the national and international MLAGB pistol shooter Derek Fuller.

ISBN 1 86126 482 8

Priced, last time I looked, at £19.99.

Mine came from e*** for £3.99.

If you can't find one online, PM me and you can borrow mine.

A great read from a world-renowned expert BP pistol shooter.

tac

 

[Sdeve999]

It is quite fortunate that the original poster did not take lessons on pulling hand grenade pins :haha:
Fred

A quite remarkable post. If I had taken lessons then I would have been instructed in the wisdom of which bit to throw away, and why. Furthermore I have never had reason to throw grenades. Even the few ill mannered posts on this thread had something to do with the subject at hand. Still, I'm happy that you're happy. :hmm:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Guess my old thick skin has become too insensitive. I see a lot of whining about folks being rude and hadn't seen it. (Listen to the 1939 recording of Mbube by Solomon Linda and the Evening Birds if you want wailing.)

When I started in muzzle loading, there was no internet or forums like this, just rough old cantankerous folks like Ron Griffie and Pat Miller, Tiny Shoemaker, etc. They treated newbies and flatlanders with equal scorn. I sufferred all manner of criticism of my TC Hawken and how the flintlock was junk. (It was as I came to learn) But if at the end of the day, you had a 6 pack to share around the fire while they debated rifling, twist, balance, etc, the education was great. Did Jeremiah Johnson get huffy with Bear Claw when they first met? "Are you the same pilgrim I been hearing for three days and smelling for...."

Iron the wedgie out of yer knickers and calm down.

 

[bpd303]

Iron the wedgie out of yer knickers and calm down.

Great saying... mind if I use it?

 

[Sdeve999]

Guess my old thick skin has become too insensitive. I see a lot of whining about folks being rude and hadn't seen it. (Listen to the 1939 recording of Mbube by Solomon Linda and the Evening Birds if you want wailing.)

When I started in muzzle loading, there was no internet or forums like this, just rough old cantankerous folks like Ron Griffie and Pat Miller, Tiny Shoemaker, etc. They treated newbies and flatlanders with equal scorn. I sufferred all manner of criticism of my TC Hawken and how the flintlock was junk. (It was as I came to learn) But if at the end of the day, you had a 6 pack to share around the fire while they debated rifling, twist, balance, etc, the education was great. Did Jeremiah Johnson get huffy with Bear Claw when they first met? "Are you the same pilgrim I been hearing for three days and smelling for...."

Iron the wedgie out of yer knickers and calm down.

I was going to leave this lay, but it just goes against the grain. What you propose is the acceptance of pig ignorant behaviour, of blaming the object of that behaviour for being affected by it. It is much the same as the vicious playground bully who, when challenged about his behaviour dismisses it as 'just having a laugh'. If people want to live in a society where ignorant behaviour, bad manners, and bullying is acceptable, then they really cannot complain if that society stinks, because it stinks with their help.

I would add that people who own firearms really ought to present better manners than some contributors to this thread have displayed (And usually do).

Finally, I have no wedgie in my knickers. Thirty years of law enforcement have inured me to the fact that some people have no regard for politeness or manners. It doesn't trouble me personally when people reveal their true selves on a forum in a manner they are unlikely to do in real life. Oddly enough I find most of the shooting forums I am a member of will be genuinely helpful to any enquiry.

Do you really think that trying to justify bad manners, rudeness, and general ignorance is a good thing?

P.S.
Jeremiah Johnson was a make believe film. Bear Claw was reciting a script.

 

[Zonie]

Gentlemen.
I have tried to suggest in a earlier post in this topic that we stay "on topic", which is discussing the possibility of shooting conicals out of a Le Page pistol.

It seems that several people would rather discuss anything but the topic and choose to dwell on some of the inappropriate behavior that was made early in the topic. Therefore, I'm closing this post.

Before I do, may I remind all of you to read the Forum Rules again.

Pay particular attention to:

8. Please conduct personal discussions in private.

14. Sometimes, the discussions get rather heated. Please remember to stick to the subject matter and don't attack the messenger. You may debate the topic, but you may not personally attack the members for posting something you disagree with. Everyone here has a right to their opinion.

15. If your post attacks (comments on) the poster, instead of addressing the subject matter, your post will be deleted. If this happens too many times, your account will be deleted.

16. We welcome debate, but personal attacks will not be tolerated.

17. Please keep in mind, if you get banned, the old "he started it" defense won't fly here.

40. The Forum Moderators have the right to edit, censor, delete or otherwise modify any posted information, without notice.