Using conicals in Le Page .44

[Sdeve999]

In all honesty, a Le Page does very well for what it is designed for, it is a winner.

It is a premier line pistol at the top of the game for side locks.

Some of the answers you did not like come from asking somewhat a dumb question to folks who have knowledge about pistols.

I find it an absolute article of faith that the only 'dumb question' is the one you don't ask. All of the answers I didn't care for, even the ones with useful information, could have been managed a tad less snottily. But perhaps you could explain why someone asking a question that they do not know the answer to in a forum where he might expect to find people who not only know the answer but might explain their answer is being dumb?

 

[pargent]

You asked for comments and you got just that from two accomplished pistol shooters from different sides of the globe , and I might add at no cost to you except to reveal your IQ at an international level :applause: :bow:

 

[nkbj]

Golly. My single shot likes round noses.

 

[azmntman]

There are some on this forum who know EVERYTHING (like a nagging wife, or partner, ya now), and they are bothered by those of us who remain ignorant in comparison. I would advise that if you have a really really important issue and need the best answer possible that you PM these folks and ask your question nicely and perhaps if they have grace and mercy that day they will PM you back with great wisdom and knowledge.

Or you can ignore their arrogance and gather (surely less accurate and valuable) information from the major majority here who are not continually told "not tonight YOU GAVE ME A HEADACHE" :rotf:

Arrogance sucks. :td:

 

[pargent]

Please do not mistake honesty (from personal experience) for arrogance at times it is best not to sugar coat things and this is one of those times .

 

[TFoley]

PS - I've never seen teeny Minié bullets, especially as they were designed from the onset to be around .58cal for the French, British and Americans who used them. The nearest thing would be a R.E.A.L bullet I guess, but I've never seen one in the calibre you seek in the UK. Guess your on your own here, after all, eh?

I had in mind the following advertised mould,.450 diameter, that is supposed to be a minie, but didn't want to spend the money without some opinions.
http://www.henrykrank.com/index.ph...Path=164_181_183_511&products_id=1887[/quote]


I learn something every day. :thumbsup:

I suppect it's meant for a rifle with a mean ol' charge to open up the skirt into the rifling.

Buy it and try it.

Then tell us your experiences.

MY experience shooting conicals in my ROA is that they kick like a kicking thing - even with comparatively low [ie. 26gr] loads, and are as accurate as a well-aimed hose. That could be me, except that I shoot 90's with RB and 26gr of FFg in the same gun.

My pal shoots his .45cal Kuchenreuter with a scant 15gr FFG load, and substantially beats me every time we meet.

tac, still banging rocks.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Italian single shot muzzleloader pistols generally have tight bores. Even if the 45 minnie came out at 447, you would have to swage it down to less than 44 to make it fit. Then keep in mind that a certain minimum powder charge is necessary to expand the skirt of the hollow base to seal the bore. An effort that will probably be impossible given the width and depth of the Pedersoli rifling. Most civil war style minnies require a minimum of 40 grains to expand the skirt. A hefty charge for a pistol with a bullet. And given my past experience, it will not seal the depth of the rifling, resulting in blow by, bullet deformation and further decreases in accuracy. As I said, finding a suitable conical is probably impossible. The Brits, in the early Sniders experimented with a clay plug in the base of the minnie on the theory that the clay plug would be driven into the skirt to help seal the bore. Even the Snider had shallow rifling by comparison. The plug worked sort of..... but not quite.

Pistol shooting is largely a conflict of mind over matter and with a slight amount of proper coaching and some hours of practice, nearly anyone can become a fair shot. My days of intense regular pistol team competition are long over, but I still consider myself a fair shot. I break out the guns to show up whippersnappers from time to time. Frankly, you have the advantage of one of the best possible target pistols to work with. Just the muscle control in the fingers required to shoot a pistol properly can take many hours over many days three fingers and a thumb need to hold the pistol steady but not too tight while the trigger finger pulls slowly but independently from the rest of the hand. That type of control can become instinctual, but takes time. Many shooters don't take the time to find a proper target stance. It is so very easy and yet most fail to do it. My college coach had most team candidates shooting fair within a couple hours. Shooting well enough for the team took weeks and months. As one other put it it is mostly in the mind. It is. Concentration to block out all the peripheral goings on, concentration on sight picture, squeeze and follow through. When all you hear is your own squishing pulse and breathing, no birds, no other shooters, etc., then you are partially there.

Give round balls, the pistol and yourself a few more range sessions to seek redemption before giving up..

 

[azmntman]

So I gather there is a safety issue or possible damage to a le page .44 if one uses a conical?

If so yer certainly correct. If not then I have no clue why beating up a guy for an honest question is a necessity? If not arrogance then what? I cannot see a polite response as sugar coating??? Coulda said the same dang thing without what (I) would refer to as arrogance???

Example: "The Le Page was specifically designed for a PRB and I wouldn't recommend even trying a conical"

We should play nice before the powers than be get tired of the BS and jerk the thread. Like I said I am pretty ignorant of this gun but I feel the OP was very much asked in sincerity?

 

[azmntman]

Zimmerstutzen was post while I was! His post is informative and polite. No insinuations of low IQ or "dumb questions" Had he posted before all the BS the OP may have just said "OH, why waste my time" Instead he was attacked, ridiculed and got less than useful advise from myself as no one would have the courtesy to politely answer his question.

Hope no Newbies read this thread before they thought about asking why the heck cant I use the same powder my uncle uses to load up his .357? He just might fear the non sugar coated responses. :shocked2:

I have thick skin and "common sense" so whatever...I just keep on asking

 

[pargent]

ff My first reply was precise and to the point (with respect ) it was not I that got excited when told something that I did not want to hear , with out knowing an OP's tech. background it is best to keep answers short and to the point , as for anyone coming in on a topic it is best to read all the posts on the topic before taking sides, the OP had his question answered promptly and correct .

 

[azmntman]

Well you have assumed I was referring to you? You are correct the first post you left was not what I was referring to. Were I referring to you, and your posts, Your third post may fit the glove?

I have never seen you post like this before, you have had informative and quite interesting posts and replies. Others seem to troll for something to make them feel superior. Well no more trolling, ya'll are better than me! If that's not enough I can't help ya.

I still say his OP was sincere and did not show any lack of IQ, was not a dumb question and deserved better responses than some gave.

And I always read posts from the start and I don't take sides. Didn't know they're were sides? IS THIS an argument? Shouldn't be, should be a place to ask questions and HELP others and discuss our favorite sport!

Anyway, have a good day and I will too!

 

[bpd303]

PS - I've never seen teeny Minié bullets, especially as they were designed from the onset to be around .58cal for the French, British and Americans who used them. The nearest thing would be a R.E.A.L bullet I guess, but I've never seen one in the calibre you seek in the UK. Guess your on your own here, after all, eh?

I had in mind the following advertised mould,.450 diameter, that is supposed to be a minie, but didn't want to spend the money without some opinions.
http://www.henrykrank.com/index.ph...Path=164_181_183_511&products_id=1887[/quote]

I have that mold. I don't think it will work for the .44 Le Page, although I don't have one. I bought it to try in my .45 Kentucky rifle and had to pound it down the bore. Accuracy was not very good. I believe Pedersoli recommends a .435 ball.

 

[Zonie]

Sorry to see this topic get off on the wrong foot.
Usually the topics on our forum are handled much better by our members so I will apologize for them.

That said, I looked at a few things on the Pedersoli site and found that yes, they recommend using a .435 diameter round ball. I didn't see a recommended patch but as pistols are not patched as tightly as rifles, I would guess a .010 thick patch would be in order.

When I first saw your OP, my mind jumped to the Pedersoli Kentucky pistols construction.
It basically holds the barrel in the stock with the nose cap, a captured thin piece of wood and the barrel tang.

After looking at the PDF of the LePage they offer, I see the barrel is held in place with a nice underlug so recoil shouldn't cause a problem. http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uploads/prodotti/S323-S325.pdf

The recoil will be twice that of a patched roundball for any comparable powder load with the bullet you were thinking of.

The rifling is a 1:18 twist which should handle the lightest of the bullets you linked but I would suspect the longer heavier bullets may not stabilize with the low velocities the LePage will produce.

If the pistol does have a slightly undersize bore you will have to add the cost of sizing dies. Which one? Darned if I know. You would have to accurately measure the bore and then subtract 1 to 3 thousandths of an inch.
A bullet more than .003 under bore size will probably not bump up to engage the rifling with a pistol load.

Hope this answers a few of your questions.

 

[Sdeve999]

ff My first reply was precise and to the point (with respect ) it was not I that got excited when told something that I did not want to hear , with out knowing an OP's tech. background it is best to keep answers short and to the point , as for anyone coming in on a topic it is best to read all the posts on the topic before taking sides, the OP had his question answered promptly and correct .

Your initial reply and one that followed basically amounted to 'coz I sez so'. Whether you are correct in what you said or not, there was no actual information contained within. My question was not, in fact, answered at all in any sense of imparting useful information, but rather just an ill stated opinion.

By way of contrast, I now read a few answers that contain both information and politeness. That's great. To the authors of those replies I give thanks for helping me make an informed decision. To certain others I merely acknowledge their right to display their personalities to the world at large. :v

 

[pargent]

:shocked2: You were given the facts by two very accomplished pistol competitors with experience at state, national and world levels in several shooting disciplines. The Pedersoli Le Page is capable of putting every shot into the 10 ring at 50 meters with a one handed duelling stance ,to start shooting well you will need to get some hands on coaching advice, however the greatest variable to good pistol shooting is the tension on the nut on the but.

 

[TFoley]

I believe Pedersoli recommends a .435 ball.

I'd opine that there is a good historical rationale for that decision, eh? :thumbsup:

I'm gone from this discussion anyhow, since I don't have a Pedersoli single shot target pistol of any kind, just almost fifty years of BP shooting experience. I guess by now I've figured out what works, and what, no matter how you call it, hammer it, modify it or generally futz around with it, won't.

You don't have to be a genius to figure out why the inflatable anvil was an instant non-seller among those who used such tools.

Elongated and nekkid projectiles intended for a long bore and heavy charges, as opposed to a light and patched ball bullet, are not going to perform in the same way. 'snot opinion - it's a plain fact of physics.

tac

 

[Sdeve999]

Well, I've been doing some casting today and I did a few .44 bullets that I have used when I had a Rogers and Spencer .44 muzzle loading revolver. Offering up the bullet it was clear that it would take a hell of a lot of hammering to seat it. I don't fancy that, so unless I can get hold of a .45 cal minie mould to try, round balls it is. Given that someone has spoken of their experience on the .45 minie, I'm not spending the money on buying one. Currently I'm using .433 with 10 thou pre lubed patches.

I would like to say though that when a person asks advice, the most useless answer, even if it's right, is 'Because I know more than you and I say it is so."

If life had been lived on that basis, North America would most likely still be populated by Native Americans living on buffalo, for expert opinion a while back was that the earth was flat. I don't think I have ever met anyone who hasn't reacted with resentment at best to being told "Because I say so."

But thanks to those who gave information instead of opinions.

 

[azmntman]

i sometimes think we could/would be better off with the buffalo option??

 

[zimmerstutzen]

We don't even know the extent to which the Europeans destroyed the knowledge of the higher American civilizations. We know the Aztecs and Mayans had very advanced mathematical and engineering skills. The Anasazi in the American SW had some way to record and send messages by courier, yet we don't have a clue what that was. The Incas sent messages spelled out by knots on a string, instead of marks on paper. Just a different form of recording language. The natives in some areas possessed very advanced knowledge which was destroyed by the conquering Europeans.

Who knows if the North American cultures may have been better off had the Europeans stayed home.


There is a bit of irony in the fact that a newbie would be possessed of a Le Page. It is something many advanced shooters can not afford. Simple possession of such a gun generally imputes the idea that the owner has a more sophisticated knowledge of such black powder arms.

 

[TFoley]

Well, I've been doing some casting today and I did a few .44 bullets that I have used when I had a Rogers and Spencer .44 muzzle loading revolver. Offering up the bullet it was clear that it would take a hell of a lot of hammering to seat it. I don't fancy that, so unless I can get hold of a .45 cal minie mould to try, round balls it is. Given that someone has spoken of their experience on the .45 minie, I'm not spending the money on buying one. Currently I'm using .433 with 10 thou pre lubed patches.

I would like to say though that when a person asks advice, the most useless answer, even if it's right, is 'Because I know more than you and I say it is so."

If life had been lived on that basis, North America would most likely still be populated by Native Americans living on buffalo, for expert opinion a while back was that the earth was flat. I don't think I have ever met anyone who hasn't reacted with resentment at best to being told "Because I say so."

But thanks to those who gave information instead of opinions.

Sir, it's not a matter of 'I said so' or 'opinion' no more than me saying that a Ferrari is faster than a John Deere tractor - it's matter of plain fact and physics. I'm simply trying to do what a few others here are trying to do, and that is to advise you that you are wasting your time and money. You choosing come the raw prawn with us - as my Ozzie NDN might say - makes not the slightest bit of difference to me or to anybody else here who has offered you friendly advice.

Even you must see that shooting a 240gr or so bullet in a pistol with rifling designed to shoot a 125gr ball is going to end in tears.

tac