Using 3F or 4F black powder

Under the heading "General Muzzleloading" ZONIE posted a video made by CVA showing the results of using smokeless powder in a muzzle loaded rifle. As you might expect the results blew up each rifle in the demonstration.

One item which caught my ear was the CVA rep saying NEVER TO USE EITHER 3F OR 4F BLACK POWDER in a muzzle loaded rifle. That strikes me as being counter to all that I have ever read about various loads for a muzzle loader.

I have used 3F powder almost exclusively for over 40 years w/o any problems. The maximum loads are about 70 to 80 grains but mot of the time they are 50 grains. Never used 4F in a rifle. Only used 4F in a percussion revolver.

Has anyone on this site ever heard not using 3F in a rifle? I haven't.

 

[mikeinaz]

What you said is absolutely right. Maybe it was a typo.

 

[Dwight Rutherford]

Scroll down to the bottom of Zonie's post. He clarifies the statement.

 

[Zonie]

Further clairification for those who don't want to go read what I said:

As I mentioned in that topic, the video was made primarily for the people shooting those new fangled guns that we don't talk about.

Almost all of the people using them, to a man use heavy, elongated bullets and IMO, 3Fg and 4Fg powders will create tremendous breech pressures.
I'm talking about pressures that are getting up into the smokeless powder range.

Because some of us Traditional rifle shooters also shoot some heavy conical's in our sidelock guns, I think the statement about not using those powder grades is as valid for us as it is for those "other guys", but only if a conical is being shot.

For the people shooting patched roundballs, the 3Fg powder will work fine.

I notice that in the "Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual", they only show 2Fg, Pyrodex RS and Pyrodex Select powders for the heavy conical's they tested. No 3Fg loads at all are shown.

I wouldn't recommend 4Fg powder for anything other than flintlock pan priming.
I suppose it is HC for the little .31 caliber cap & ball revolver but even then, it would be for a light 8-10 grain load of the stuff.

 

[fleener]

good reason not to use barrels made from 12L14. I shoot heavy conicals in quite a few ML rifles and never worry about the barrels.

Fleener

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I was under the impression that much of what CVA places on the web these days was because of the run of burst barrels that they experienced, and they are trying to cover all bases.

LD

 

[Alden]

FFFg is, as a traditional rule of thumb, only used in rifles of let's say pistol caliber -- less than .50. I won't go into why -- it won't matter. People here especially, and sometimes others on the internet, seem to feed off of each other with nonsense and argue about doing whatever the hell they want and haven't blown up yet so it must be right they figure. Can't dismiss such brilliant, grits-based, logic.

4F is 4-F down any barrel. The kids will have to look that one up I suppose...

 

[Sandan027]

Would you say FFFg in a .50 is 4-F too. My Traditions manual has load data for both FFg and FFFg? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm curious.
Thanks

 

[mooman76]

FF or FFF should work but you need to see what works for your gun. 4F is not made for guns except to prime the pan for flintlocks.

 

[Billnpatti]

If you are shooting patched round balls, you can safely use reasonable charges of 3f in just about any caliber muzzleloaidngc rifle. At least, I know it works quite safely in calibers up to and including a .54 caliber. I have two .54 caliber rifles and I feed them a steady diet of 3f Goex. One rifle prefers 55 grains of 3f Goex for both targets and hunting while the othere prefers 60 grains of 3f for targets and 90 grains for hunting. Why the difference? Two different guns. That's just the way muzzleloaders are.

 

[Sandan027]

Actually both work in my rifle. I'm finding the FFFg works better. At least I'm getting some tighter groups depending on the projectile with FFFg. FFFFg for priming a flinter only, sure.

 

[Patocazador]

I shot nothing but 3F in my .50 Hawken for ~20 years. Then I made a mistake and started reading all that "garbage" about only 2F so I bought some and tried it. I went straight back to 3F. :v

You have to decide for yourself which shoots better.

 

[Sandan027]

I figured I would pretty much have to decide for myself. Empirically. If there's one lesson I've learned from my short, so far, time on this board it's that everything is pretty much tied to the unique individuality of the gun you're shooting. Seems like the only hard and fast rule is pour the powder down the barrel is the first step in the loading process. I'm reasoning that swabbing/wiping is the last step in the shooting process. :wink:

 

[nwtradegun]

I have used 3 f all my life in any caliber from 36 to 72. always had best results. even use it in my flintlock for priming. it burns cleaner and a lower charge is used.

 

[Alden]

.50 is the borderline and I tend to err on the side of caution 'cause, ya know, my and others' health and welfare depend on it. I wouldn't bet my life that FFFg is OK in a them, but maybe a disfiguring accident. In any case, others' posts remind me...

...I know a guy who, once a week, puts on a blindfold, fingers in his ears, starts singing out "la, la, la, la..." and walks across a usually quiet two-way road in front of his house and back again late at night. He has great fun and defends it; he's "never been hit by a car."

 

[nkbj]

What ever it is, Jacks Battle is great in the everything I shoot round ball in and for minies and maxis, .40 through .70.

The FFg is getting saved for heavy loads with heavy bullets. And there is seldom a need for those!

 

[VEARL]

Yep....Never use 3F or 4F Black powder in those unmentionables. I own one and that is what the mgf. say not to do. :stir:

 

[nhmoose]

I can undemand CVA's position Their rifles have been manure since the start.

 

[dikman]

That's a bit harsh! I just bought an old, used (but in good condition) .45 CVA and to try it out I used 50 gns. 3f, 'cos that's what I happened to have measured out, and I was surprised how well it shot. If I work on it a bit it should get better.

As for using 4f, I don't know about over there but here it would work out expensive to use that stuff as the main charge.

 

[Brokenlaig]

I've used 3F in everything up to .54 with PRB without issue. I use 2F in larger bores; seems to work better, for me, individually, as the fouling seems easier to clean, to me, individually. YMMV. Those soulless plastic cheat guns use 2f or RS substitutes ONLY. Period. Stop. End of discussion.