Two old muskets, no idea...

[dodgebill]

These two muskets have been ithe family for a long time. No idea their history. I think the flint lock is early 1700's or it may just be made to look that way. 68" over all and NO markings what so ever.

The second is really bad shape. It had been in pieces for many years and some got lost. The is a PC musket awith very fancy carving

Does anyone even know where to start looking for info on these?

Thanks for any and all help you can offer

Bill C

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

No.1 is a Belgian made piece dating from about 1900 - 1960. Originally made for the African trade in the Belgian Congo. Many came to this country in the1950s and early 1960s to be used in the early days of the muzzleloading "rebirth" era inspired by the likes of Disney's "Daniel Boone". They sod for well under $100 in those days. Dixie Gun Works was selling them toward the end of the production.

No.2 dates from 1850 - 1900. Likely made in Belgium or possibly Germany. Pictures of proofmarks on the barrel would help with identification.

 

[TFoley]

Pictures of a gun looking remarkably like the top one have already been posted on this part of the forum.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/247479/

The comments made on the responses to THAT thread similarly apply here.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

 

[dodgebill]

I saw that post and my gun looks nothing like that. The screws are hand cut (or made to look that way at least), the stock is full length with no barrell clamps, square cut nails for the ram rod clamps and it has no markings. The trigger is also completely different. I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, I just don't see it with these two guns.

It been in the family for about 60 years so the time line would be about right I guess.

I had no idea anyone was still making smooth bore muskets after 1900. Seems the Belgians hadn't heard of rifling or didn't want anyone to hit anything.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

............I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, I just don't see it with these two guns.

It been in the family for about 60 years so the time line would be about right I guess.

I had no idea anyone was still making smooth bore muskets after 1900. Seems the Belgians hadn't heard of rifling or didn't want anyone to hit anything.
Thanks for the info.

The Belgians were making them, there was a market for them. In the Belgian Congo and possibly other parts of colonial Africa, native peoples were not, by law, allowed to own modern guns and the muzzleloading smoothbore musket found ready sales there.

There were at least a dozen variant patterns made, often using surplus, even new condition military musket parts - barrels, locks, bands, trigger guards and triggers, etc. - still in storage in factories in Belgium. Double barrel shotguns were also made but very few if any rifled guns. Sorry if you are offended, enjoy the guns for what they are.

 

[Zonie]

The gun may have been made in Belgium but I wonder.

The European countries all have Proof Laws which require that all guns made in their countries be proofed in order to be sold or exported.
Belgium is no exception and I'm sure many of us have seen the crown over oval with E over LG over star inside it which is their proof mark.

Perhaps they got around the law with this gun or possibly the unassembled parts were exported and assembled elsewhere in the world?

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Zonie, have you seen other pictures of this musket that show there are no proof marks?

 

[Zonie]

No. I am going by the original posters comment that there are, "... NO markings what so ever."

 

[pichou]

Might have to look on the underside of the barrels.

#1 is a trade gun, no doubts there.

 

[dodgebill]

No offense taken, I just hoped I wasn't being a newb. I didn't think to take the gun apart. If it was really old I didn't want to do that but if it's just a trade gun I guess it would not hurt much.

There really are no marks, I know what they are and looked over every inch. It makes a lot of sense being a trade gun. In doing more reasearch it looks like the lock and barrell from a brown bess but with no sling mounts. The stock is jsut some junk wood and the butt plate doesn't really fit it.

Just a guess but I assume firing it would be stupid as heck?

The other gun is too badly pitted to read any proof marks. I got out a magnifying glass and tried to read them but they are too far gone. It will remain a mystery I guess.

Thanks for all the info. It's been very helpful.

Bill C

 

[Dave K]

Yes, proof marks are on the bottom of the barrel probably 90+% of the time. I do have a Belgium barrel that has it's ELG mark on the left side of the barrel and that is the first I had personally seen where the mark was visible without taking the barrel out. The back action lock also helps date the gun on the 2nd gun. This style of lock will give it a date of no earlier than approx. 1830. The carving on the bottom of the butt stock was also fairly common around the 1840-1850's also and they may have even carried that until later.