TVM Fur Trade?

[Smokey Plainsman]

At the risk of enraging members here for posting too many questions (of that I apologize), what are yall's thoughts on the TVM Fur Trade?
http://www.tennesseevalleymuzzleloading.com/western-fur-trade-rifle

Look about right for the era? I'd prefer an earl-mid 19th century flintlock. I am more interested in that period than the 18th century, the era right before the percussion era.

Would this be a good way to get such a flintlock?

-Smokey

 

[Zonie]

That rifle looks like what I would imagine the early fir trade rifles to look like.

During the years following the L&C expedition up to the late 1820's, flintlocks were common among the fur trappers and traders.

The percussion became much more popular in the early '30's and by the mid to late '30's flintlocks were being converted to the new percussion system.

I think by the 1850's flintlocks were almost never made unless some old timer insisted on having one built.

 

[plmeek]

Smoky,

It fits the time frame you are interested in. The lock is right. Appears to have narrower butt plate.

They appear to be trying for something like the JJ Henry Old English trade rifle. There was a company called J.P. Gunstocks that made a similar rifle in the 1990's.

Unfortunately, they've fallen short of building a very authentic rifle, but they admit that in the description.

It looks like they use the same trigger guard as they have on their Leman rifle. It would be better if they used the trigger guard from their Late Lancaster rifle. The cheekpiece is not right. It should curve up more in the front rather than disappearing into the wrist.

The best thing about the rifle is price. If you're on a tight budget, then ignore my criticisms.

Phil Meek

 

[Kansas Jake]

I too thought it bore some resemblance to the Henry English pattern rifle. Over the years there have been many rifles offered that were much less historical in their appearance.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I'd like it a lot better with a tapered barrel and the Late Lancaster trigger guard.

Get the Trade Rifle Sketch Book by Hansen to see line drawings of rifles sold during the early years of the Fur Trade. I used the Deringer plans for my Flint Lock Plains rifle.

The TVM rifle is a good rifle and one of the better offerings out there. If you order one, ask for the Late Lancaster trigger guard.

 

[rich pierce]

For the money it looks like a great value. Certainly would pass muster as a fur trade era styled rifle. I did not see barrel length. I’d want 42”.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

What caliber and bbl length would be appropriate?

Would a 38" bbl be too short? I am not so tall (5' 7") so wouldn't want an awkwardly long bbl.

What would the fur trade men use in terms of caliber?

 

[Kansas Jake]

The Hanson sketch book shows about a 42" barrel. For the MM era you would probably want at least a 50 caliber. 54 would also be good. If I was mostly going to punch paper, I'd get a 50 just for cheaper shooting costs. i.e. less powder, less lead. If I thought I might hunt something larger than deer, I would definitely get a 54.

Barrel length and how it handles will also depend on width of the barrel and whether it is swamped or not. I don't have anything with a swamped barrel, but that would probably make a big difference in handling if the barrel is 42". A 38" barrel would not be out of the question for the time frame and the rifle is not a strict replica of any one gun.

Hope this is helpful and are just my opinions.

Smokey, I was at the range today. Too bad you aren't still around here.

 

[Grenadier1758]

TVM offers optional lengths from 36 to 42 inches. The single trigger is a good choice. The L&R lock is the one I have on my Deringer rifle and it is a good lock. I did the send the lock off to get the flash guard installed.

 

[Alaskan Woodsman]

So this rifle would be more "correct" than a flint lock Leman?

 

[Elnathan]

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/269/2/BOOK-RAI

Spend $25 before spending $1500+.

 

[plmeek]

So this rifle would be more "correct" than a flint lock Leman?

The TVM Fur Trade rifle is a fantasy rifle, so "correct" is a difficult word to use for it. To keep the cost down TVM had to make some compromises. A truely correct Henry Old English trade rifle wood cost 2 to 3 times what they are charging for their TVM Fur Trade rifle.

As the name implies, the "old" English pattern trade rifle was first made in England and imported into Canada, the Great Lakes Region, and the Spanish territories in what is now the southern States of the US. By the time of the War of 1812, a specific English pattern had evolved from the early Lancaster pattern. This is the pattern that J.J. Henry copied and made his first deliveries to the American Fur Company in 1827.

J.J. Henry and his son J. Henry made these Old English trade rifles for the AFC every year through 1842. They continued to supply them to Ewing & Ewing and Pierre Chouteau Jr. & Co. after the AFC sold out with the last documented order made in 1858.

With a little imagination, the TVM Fur Trade rifle is a facsimile of the type of rifle used in the fur trade from before the War of 1812 right up to the end of the 1850's.

A flint lock Leman is only marginally "correct" for the pre-1840 fur trade. Leman started his business in 1834. He sold some rifles to Indian traders in St. Louis in that first year. His first government contract for Indian rifles was in 1837. These were classic late Lancaster pattern rifles and not the later pattern we normally associate with him. No one is presently making a commercial version of this early Leman flintlock.

By 1840, Leman had developed his pattern rifle and continued to make them until he died in 1887. This is the style of Leman rifle that TVM, Track of the Wolf, and others make. Fur trade companies were still ordering some flintlock rifles from Leman as late as 1850, but most sales by that time were for percussion rifles.

The style of Leman rifle that TVM and Track make in flintlock would be most correct for the 1840's.

Phil Meek

 

[Cruzatte]

It's reminiscent of one of the J. Henry models, the so-called English Pattern as illustrated in the Trade Rifle Sketch Book by Hanson. (Fur Trade Press). I'd go with it to a sure-enough Rocky Mountain Rendezvous.

 

[rusty]

I would go with J.J Henry Artificers a little more money a lot more rifle.

 

[Cruzatte]

What caliber and bbl length would be appropriate?

Would a 38" bbl be too short? I am not so tall (5' 7") so wouldn't want an awkwardly long bbl.

What would the fur trade men use in terms of caliber?

According to the Hanson book, the English Pattern rifle barrel by J Henry was 42-44 inches long. I'm only 5'6" and I have a rifle loosely based on the J Henry Lancaster Pattern. It has a 44" swamped Getz barrel, .54 caliber. I can hold it up just fine. Hanson also states that the caliber of the originals was .53. Depends on what you want. You could go either .50 or .54 if you're a bit of a stickler.

 

[Cruzatte]

I would go with J.J Henry Artificers a little more money a lot more rifle.

Wow! Those are some really pretty rifles! :thumbsup:

 

[rich pierce]

Leman = late.
The JJ Henry Artificers guns look authentic. I wish the website had more than pictures. Maybe it’s there but I could not find it.

 

[Hallmark55]

Hey Smokey,
If ya can wait a couple weeks, I can post some pictures of my Trade Rifle. Just got told by TVM that my rifle is heading out of the shop. Sure looks like it will be worth the wait.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Sounds good. I may be going with the J.J Henry Artificers if they are that much better for the price, though.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Sounds good. I do not want to take the cheap way out with a TVM if it is inauthentic and of lower quality, especially with only a modest price increase.