Traditions Penn. Long Rifle-Muzzle heavy?

[jimmytheshank]

I owned one of these before and it is a little muzzle heavy. But it is a nice rifle to get started in blackpowder with. If you see one thats a good price for you, get it. After you've owned and shot it awhile, go to a rondy or gun show and look at the custom guns. Put one to your shoulder and feel the difference with a swamped barrel and custom stock and see what you think. Then save your pennies, because you'll defintely be wanting to get a custom gun after that. :grin: I know, I eventually sold that old rifle of mine and have a custom built lancaster rifle and have another rifle being made for me too. :wink: Have fun!

 

[nkbj]

As compared to a Penn style...
After shooting one of the DGW .50 "southern" long rifles for many years...well, it's got good points and bad points depending on whether your five feet tall or six feet tall, used to swinging a mattock or just a golf club. It's a specialized weapon of yesteryear. It's place isn't happily hiking through the woods and swinging on a running deer. It's made for you to set up your shot and make meat with a round ball from as far away as necessary.

Good Points: Rock steady when it's setting on a chunk of log. Makes cloverleaf groups at 100 yards. 43" long barrel gives devastating velocity to a round ball.
Bad Point: The balance point is so far forward that in stand up shooting, most people cannot hold it steady even with a shooting stick.

We live in this era of mass produced conformity that long rifles are totally alien to. Wanta be happy with your rifle? Get one that suits just you.

 

[Enfield1]

Ron T., Hello and welcome. I got seriously into black powder shooting about 11 years ago. My first flinter was a Traditions Pennsylvania Rifle. I shot it a lot and even harvested a buck with it. Yes it is extremely front heavy. I would recommend saving just a little more and buying a custom built flinter from Track of the Wolf. If you check their website regularly, you can find some excellent deals on some great condition used flinters. I purchased a beautiful Southern Mountain Rifle with a large siler lock. It was only when I shot this that I realized what I had been missing. There is just no comparison. Good luck and remember to have fun.

 

[hanshi]

Some miscellaneous thoughts to help (or hinder). True, a custom rifle is incomparable and made to your dimensions (if you have it built for you). If you are of average height or taller most will fit you fine, anyway. A quick check showed swamped barrels around $200 extra and they are worth every penny for the most part. I prefer them for hunting.

My friend and I both have TVM Early Va. rifles with 42" barrels. His is swamped and mine isn't. He says that my rifle (a .50) holds and balances like his (a .54) and I have to admit there is little difference. My barrel, however, is a fairly light weight barrel, I think it's called and "A" weight, or something. Both our rifles are noticeably less muzzle heavy than typical "production" rifles. Some companies overdo it on weight. A custom rifle either finished, in-the-white or from a kit can be had with a shorter barrel and/or a lighter weight for less money than a comparable swamped barrel rifle. The difference between such a rifle and a typical production rifle will probably be more noticeable than the difference between a swamped barrel and a lightweight straight one.

Whether or not a somewhat muzzle heavy rifle holds steady for you is something of a personal issue. For most, a heavy barrel does indeed hold steady. This is the reason modern target rifles & pistols have weighted & heavy barrels. For ease of carrying in the woods the extra weight offers little advantage. For targets it does help even with off hand shooting.

Handle as many longrifles as possible and look around. If you can't find what you want at a price you can afford, look to getting a kit or an in-the-white gun. TVM kits can be had for "around" $500 - $600. Others makes are in that range or a bit higher.

Don't turn down a shorter barrel. I like 38" barrels whether straight or swamped. My favorite has a 36" .45 barrel. The barrel length thing is maybe a little over done. 42" is a long barrel. Good luck.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

A 44" barrel on a late Hawken would be overdoing it. The same length on a longrifle is correct and for some schools a tad short. If you care at all about historically accurate firearms and equipment you take the time to get it right. It's been my experience that most of the folks who complain about long barrels and especially those who say that they are difficult to use in the woods have never even used a longrifle. They're either repeating what they've heard "somewhere" or they just think a long gun would be a problem in the woods.

I have several long rifles with barrels over 40" and none are barrel heavy or a pain to carry. One rifle is a .62 caliber early New England rifle with a swamped 42" barrel. It weighs about 7 pounds and is finely balanced. Even with full loads recoil isn't a problem due to the early style butt with its wide butt plate. It just would not look right with a short barrel.

I suppose if someone doesn't care about correctness or history or has no idea what a certain type of gun should look like, then barrel length is of no concern.

 

[hanshi]

I'm very short and can't see the muzzle very well on my 42" EV when I pour in powder. I like long barrels (up to 42") but have found those a bit shorter easier to manage. I agree they (long ones) are no handicap in the woods. There were well known builders in the colonial period who built rifles shorter than 42". Also, earlier rifles tended to have somewhat shorter barrels than was the fad in the later part of the flint era.

Please understand my opinion concerning barrel length is based solely on what works for me and not on any interpretation of PC. A 42" barrel comes up to my nose, a 44" up to my eyes. Cannon is PC but not for me.

 

[Tom Compton]

Hi, Ron. Have read all of the posts here and have a little different take. Suggest you first go to several large shooting matches and shoulder different firearms, long, short, swamped, straight, etc before choosing a style. Make notes. A .54 15/16 barrel 42' long will handle different than a 7/8" .40 X 42". Then as you said, haunt the vendors and web sights for the style, caliber and barrel you found most fitting. Just be sure you know what you are looking for.

I have 2 Southern Mountain rifles (1 flint and 1 per-suction)made from parts provided by Track of the Wolf. My barrel choice on both is a 7/8 Douglass .40 caliber 42" long. They are a little front heavy and I like that as I am off hand shooter. Took a nice 8 pt this year w/ the flinter but was on the ground and elbows on the knees - would have gone prone if brush allowed. Carried that little flinter all over the place for 3 days w/ no problem.

Summary: Study hard, shop long and buy the best you can afford. Barrel and lock on a flinter are most important then the triggers. Finish, do-dads, sights can all be changed to suit.

Sight picture, trigger control, follow through,
TC

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Do what they did back in the day. Tilt the rifle or smoothbore. That buttplate is there to take this sort of use. When I am using a gun with a 48" or longer barrel, that's what I have to do. I place the heel of the stock on the ground and take a small step away and load. Imagine loading a Hudson River Valley long fowler with a six foot plus barrel! :rotf:

 

I'll throw in my 2 cents since I owned one as well about 20 years ago. What I liked about it was the lock was consistent (certainly not a Chamber's though) and the barrel was accurate, but it was HEAVY. What I disliked about it was the lock did not seem to hold the flint well and I found myself retightening it about every 5 or 6 shots. The wood is very thick along the forearm adding to the weight of the rifle. A good gunmaker will thin that forearm to usually less than 1/8 of an inch or thinner to cut down on weight. The brass was also very cheap. The brass on my rifle not only stained easily, it also actually started to flake, like chrome off a old bumper. You certainly get what you pay for, it's not a bad rifle but overall, if I was starting out again I would probably continue to save a bit until I could afford a good used custom built rifle.

 

[Ron_T.]

After reading all this good advice, I'm pretty sure I'll just wait and see what is offered down at Friendship in June... and if I find a really GOOD "bargain" that is in good condition (as determined by the President of our local ML club), and it's within my price range, that's the rifle I'll buy.

I intend to hold and shoulder many different rifles to get a "feel" for what I actually "lke".

However, my original thoughts are still pretty much the features I want on a Long Rifle... I.E., a 40"-42" browned, swamped (if they end up feeling best to me) barrel of good quality, a quality lock and double-set trigger, "tiger" or curly maple, full-length stock, weight in the 7+ pounds (no more than 8 lbs, if possible), bright brass hardware, a handsome patchbox and other attractive brass inlays with a long, brass muzzle cap.

I'd also like a "blade" front sight and a good quality, screw-adjustable rear sight that is adjustable for both elevation as well as windage, but I would still buy a rifle with a rear sight just adjustable for windage and, depending on whether or not I needed to adjust the elevation, I could eventually replace the rear sight, if necessary.

If necessary, if a rifle had all my other features, I'd buy a rifle with a "blued" barrel, but I'd prefer a "browned" barrel and case-hardened lock.

If I can't get these features on a good, used rifle in my price range... then I am considering just waiting until I can afford a better rifle rather than buying a new production rifle since I don't like the idea of putting out $600-$700 for a new rifle that isn't EXACTLY what I want.

After all, I have many, many other rifles (modern) I can shoot... I don't HAVE to buy another rifle at this point, but I'd like to have a Pennsylvania Long Rifle to shoot this summer and from now on.

Again, THANK YOU, gentlemen... I truly "appreciate" all your advice and information... and the obvious EFFORT you've put into your posts in my behalf. :bow:

When I return from Friendship in June, I'll post what I've done here in this forum. :v


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

 

[hanshi]

That's what I do. Looks kinda funny iffin I stand on a stump to load. I could have sworn I use to be taller. :hmm:

Ron T, you have the right idea. Go for it.

 

[JN01]

Ron-

Have you been to the Tippicanoe Frontier Trading Post in Tipp City? They sometimes have used custom guns there.

 

[Ron_T.]

Ron-

Have you been to the Tippicanoe Frontier Trading Post in Tipp City? They sometimes have used custom guns there.

I didn't even know they were up there. I'll check 'em out since I live in Butler Township and Tipp City is only a few miles north of my home.

Thanx for the tip!!! :v

 

[Homesteader]

Ron-

Have you been to the Tippicanoe Frontier Trading Post in Tipp City?...

I'm glad to read they're still around. After ole Redeye (Ernie) left us, I was afraid they might fold. Glad to see his wife kept the business going. Good place and good folk.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I just had a physical at the VA a little while back and I'm an inch shorter than I used to be. Guess I'll be tilting my long guns a bit more than I used to!

 

[Twisted_1in66]

***SNIP***

I'd also like a "blade" front sight and a good quality, screw-adjustable rear sight that is adjustable for both elevation as well as windage, but I would still buy a rifle with a rear sight just adjustable for windage and, depending on whether or not I needed to adjust the elevation, I could eventually replace the rear sight, if necessary.

***SNIP***

Don't be surprised when you don't find a screw adjustable rear site. That Traditions has a ramp sight and those just weren't around in the 18th century. Very typically you will find a primitive non-adjustable sight on high quality longrifles. Here's how to make it work:

To make horizontal adjustments, put a reference mark (white out works) where it is currently set and drift it (tap it over) to whichever direction is needed to center it to the target.

Virtually all rifles with blade sights will shoot low. You will raise the point of impact by filing down the front sight, but don't do that yet.

Do your initial sight in at 25 yards and don't pay attention to the elevation of the point of impact. Rather concentrate on developing a load that will give a tight group on the centerline of the target (drift the rear sight as needed). Then start to shoot it out at 50 yards using a hunting load (for a 50 cal, that's usually 70 grs. or more). Shoot at least 3-5 shots with each load as you increase the amount of powder you use. Increase the powder about 5 grains at a time. You will typically find one load for your rifle that will give you the closest groups and as you go above or below that load the groups will open up a bit.

Once you have found the optimum load for your rifle, start shooting at the 100 yard target. Now's the time to start filing down the sight. You want the point of impact to be dead on to your aim point. File the front sight down slowly because you can't put it back on once you've filed down too far.

Once you've got it sighted in to be "dead-on" at 100 yards with a hunting load, you'll typically be about 2" high at 50-yards. That will be the high-point of the trajectory of your shot. You will be dead-on out from 100 out to about 115 yards and you will know for certain that any shot at ranges inside that distance will be within 2" of the point of aim. That's a killing shot with a longrifle.

Hope that helps,
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[buckknife]

Well i will be the first to say it.Dont waste your money on a Traditions in flint.I have a shennadoa which is the same lock and vent liner.Problem one is the patten breech is very small on these rifles,problem two is the vent liner is too small and long causing a fuse effect.First i drilled the vent bigger,it helped but still too slow.I drilled more didnt help much.I finaly had to remove the vent and drill the intire hole as big as the outside of the vent all the way to the patten breech.I then threaded the hole and made my own vent which is much shorter and bigger and is coned on the inside.The vent hole is now higher above the pan and the powder on the breech side is very close to the pan charge.
They have small locks and are pretty fast,its just the small vent liner with so far to go to the charge in the patten breech makes these guns pretty much the slowest flint locks you could imagine.With some work it can be made to shoot quick and reliable but i wouldnt wish one on my worst enemy.IMHO

 

[Tinker2]

Ron T

Welcome to the forum.

Best of luck to you in finding your [ first? ] flint lock.


Keep us posted
Tinker2

 

[J.D.]

After reading all this good advice, I'm pretty sure I'll just wait and see what is offered down at Friendship in June... and if I find a really GOOD "bargain" that is in good condition (as determined by the President of our local ML club), and it's within my price range, that's the rifle I'll buy.

I intend to hold and shoulder many different rifles to get a "feel" for what I actually "like".

There are a lot of different stuyles of ML rifles. So when you handle those rifles, shoulder them as if you were going to shoot them. Elevate the muzzle, so's you don't point it at anyone, and aim at some point on a hillside, a knot on a nearby tree, or something similar.

Notice the feel of the gun. Do the sights align normally, or do you have to scrunch down on the stock to align the sights? Is the length of pull correct for you?

ML shooters are some of the friendliest folks anyone can meet, so when you are looking at guns, ask people who are not on the firing line, if you can look at and handle their guns. Stop by the gunmakers hall, and talk to the gunmakers who might be present while displaying their wares.

In short, talk to everyone, handle as many guns as possible, aim them at an elevated "target" to get a feel for what is comfortable before making a decision.

And most of all, have fun in the process.

Also, the idea that early guns had short barrels is a myth perpetuated by the unknowing. Early guns were made in both short and long barrels. The Schreit rifle, dated 1761 has a43 5/16" long barrel. And what has been described as "some of the earliest rats in the barn," meaning some of what could be the earliest rifles known, have barrels of roughly 40-44 inches long. One rifle, thought to have been made as early as the 1770's, has a 50 3/4 inch long barrel. Moreover, some of those rifles show evidence of the barrels being cut, in their working life.

God Bless,
J.D.

 

[RonT]

Ron, send me a PM, I see that we have similar intrests.
R