To have a Flintlock...

[pinemarten]

Dear folks,

I have entered the world of muzzleloaders over the past year after my father loaned me his old T/C percussion Hawken .45. It has been a lot of fun shooting, hunting, and learning about it. I have become more and more obsessed with the blackpowder path over the months and am thinking about investing in a good gun for my own. I think (though have never used) I am going to get even more from the sport from a flintlock (I am a longbow traditionalist, banjo/fiddle player, fly fisher, clay pipe smoking, kind of guy...if that makes sense?). I like older stuff and things with character and soul.
My obsession with black powder actually started when I was about 10 or so. I would get the old Dixie Gunworks catalogue every year and dream, long-for, obsess and daydream about owning a muzzleloader. Back then I ran a trap line and dreamed of being a trapper. We were too poor to have extra money for that. My parents still used an old wood cook stove, and our christmas presents were a pair of pants and a shirt for school if we were lucky. Anyway...years go by and now I have some extra (little bit!) money and am feeling those longings I experienced as a child. I think its time to get my own rifle.

Now, I only have so much to spend as our budget is limited. I'd like a real nice rifle that could be used in my life and passed on to my grand kids (I am 47 now and have 2). I am thinking I could afford to build a high quality gun over time with purchasing part-by-part as I build it (wife wouldn't notice as much as throwing out a single payment of 2 grand!). So, question is: How good a plan is it to buy a very good barrel (I wan't a deer caliber and my favorite sport is deer hunting by still hunting). Then purchase nice maple stock from a friend of mine who buys and sells select local timber. Work at inletting barrel...then buy next part...etc, etc. I would get a good book, the right tools, and take my time. This could become a hobby for my winters by the fireplace! I do have a fair amount of wood working skill. I have built many native american style bows and flat bows, 2 wood and canvas canoes, snowshoes, etc. I tie flies, etc etc. Of course...I don't know what I am getting into exactly (only that I am rabid with desire). But, I was thinking if I'd buy those parts from a list of parts of one of the TOTW kits (or others), if my stock from scratch project failed...I could then just purchase the nice pre-inletted stock.

Am I thinking sound...or should someone correct and check my impulsivity here?

thanks for any words of guidance!

Dan

 

[Livbucks]

If you want it that is reason enough!

Another option is to buy a good but saddle worn used gun and take it down and restore it to new or better. You could get one cheap enough maybe.

I would get on it if I was you. Good luck! :wink:

 

[galamb]

I will give you a kinda convoluted answer.

I hobby build - which means I sometimes have 2 or 3 guns in various stages or have none at all. I build solely for myself but will sell a "used" gun from my stack to fund another project - so that's the "perspective" that my answer is coming from.

At this moment I have three or four stock blanks sitting around with no inletting done to them at all - I only have plans for one of them at the moment.

I have two barrels sitting waiting for me to get to. These are not "off the shelf, in stock Green Mountain or Colerain barrels" that can be sourced just about anytime from places like Track of the Wolf or Muzzleloader Builder's Supply.

One came from Rice (a profile Jason builds once a year), the other was a total custom from Charlie Burton/FCI which took about 13 months to get.

(my point here is "sometimes" you need some significant "lead time" on the barrel, so you order for what you will need "next year")

I also have three or four "shoe boxes" with parts sets in them - trigger guard/butt plate/pipes/lock - maybe a patchbox - neatly labeled with whatever particular rifle I have them planned for (that I will get to at some point - sometimes something "new" gets in the way and the rifle that was "next" slips a couple rungs on the ladder).

So it's not an "alien thought" to gather parts here and there.

The one small danger, if you gather "too slowly" is a part won't be available at some later date. You can always get a barrel and a lock and a trigger. But if you need a specific butt plate or side plate etc, that's the kinda "stuff" that you buy all at once if/when it's available unless you can fashion your own.

So, if you want to go this route, first decide what style/type/school of rifle you want to build. Research the snot out of it (as an example there may be 2 or 3 locks that would suit the build) - check the on-line catalogs for the suppliers and pick out all your parts.

Then grab a box and start filling it with parts. If you are looking for something other than an off the shelf barrel you might want to order that sooner rather than later so you will have it when you think you will be ready for it.

 

[tenngun]

Get ya some of the building books offered on T O W site, or pecotonic or log cabin sport shot ect. All will give you good sevice. Tracks kits are good, or pecotonic that offers the same parts.
You can get a stock blank and do all the work, or a blank with the channel and ramrod hole pre done,or a precarved stock blank thats in the aproxament right shape through the wrist and butt area. Precarved stocks are close but there is endless 'nit picking'on how close they are to an origianl. Wrist shape and bottom to the toe is very important. Matching parts in a kit sometimes leads to mistiming parts. Many of the guns offered dont have the proper lock for instance, in order to be 'older looking'. However you can build a 90%correct gun thats good looking and only a handful of exprets could know where they wernt perfect. Many times buying a piece at a time you run the risk of what you need next being out of stock, and you end up with getting the wrong toe plate, side plate, or thimbles. I would recommend a kit for your first build, my first build was just a collection of parts and I was in over my head.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Souds good!

I am a longbow traditionalist, banjo/fiddle player, fly fisher, clay pipe smoking, kind of guy...if that makes sense?).

Makes sense to me. I'm a traditional recurve shooting, ukulele playing, fly fishing (and tying), clay pipe smoking kind of guy. A flintlock will do you good. :hatsoff:

If you take your time and get info as needed there's no reason you couldn't turn out a nice flinter. Provided you're patient and have an eye for lines and hands that do what your mind wants. I've seen a few first efforts that were outstanding.

Here comes the but . . .

Tendency is to make them heavy (not remove enough wood in shaping), not pattern on a specific type (like making a car with equal parts 1955, 1975 and 1995 styles rolled together). I would recommend you research some designs, pick one style and get a full size plan/drawings (Track of the Wolf or other sources) and follow them carefully.

Or, just build the rifle that makes you happy. That's OK too.

 

[pinemarten]

...Ok, sounds like good advise. My wife gives me the green light for about a 600-800 dollar spend. What are some kit recommendations that I should consider? I am a hunter first and am gravitating toward some of those plainer looking flintlock models. Again, want quality gun/components that will be part of a working deer rifle. I plan on hanging up the old 30-30 for good now...swear to god I do!

Dan

 

[Drago]

A little more but check out Jim Kibler's new kit. Really quality parts and that's what counts. www.jimkibler.net/kit-gun.html

 

[colmoultrie]

Get a swamped barrel, if you decide on an 18th century rifle. More expensive and harder to inlet, but definitely worth it every time you pick it up and handle or shoot it.

 

[pinemarten]

Those kits look high quality but I need a deer caliber
I am also 6' 4" and am wondering about importance of a kit allowing for a longer trigger pull?

 

[Don Steele]

Take a look at Dunlap Woodcrafts component kits.These appear to be in your price range, or very close to it. You can have your new rifle finished in time to get the requisite practice rounds through it, go through the learning curve you will experience, and be ready to hunt next season.
: http://www.dunlap-woodcrafts.com/ComponentSets/TransitionIsaacHainesRifle.php

I have been looking at this Isaac Haines, because it is offered in Left Hand. You might find something else you like better if that's not an issue for you. I would definitely suggest 54 caliber for hunting, especially where you are located.
Good Luck...!!!

 

[GANGGREEN]

I agree with Don, in your neck of the woods for a dedicated deer rifle, I'd look at a .54. At this point, you really need to decide what you like because you can kill deer with a southern rifle, or a Lancaster, or an Ohio or a plains. I presume you aren't bound by any regulations that would prohibit a caplock (here in PA we still have a flintlock only season), but flintlocks are better (I'm just kidding, relax guys). Then decide if you like brass or steel fixtures and if you need a patchbox, muzzle cap, etc. and you'll be on your way.

In addition to the bigger guys which you surely know about (Pecatonica, Muzzleloader Building Supply, Track, Chambers, TVM, etc.), don't forget about the little guys who may have what you want. I've bought a "kit" from Stonewall Creek and it was nice and I've also dealt with Dave Keck at Knob Mountain, though I've never purchased one of his component sets. I don't think these guys keep large inventories but Dave in particular knows wood, he knows stock patterns and he makes very good brass castings.

You can get a decent quality parts set or kit from any of the names mentioned and probably several other outfits but do your research and take your time. My first builds took around 2 years to complete and my more recent builds (I just completed #5) only took a couple of months. Admittedly, my skills are limited and I had no background with hand tools (or power tools for that matter) so I went really slow.

Good luck and enjoy.

 

[pinemarten]

I appreciate the suggestions! As a tall guy, I am wondering how these kits will shoot for me should I be worried about stock length/trigger pull? I don't see that listed on kits also, is the .54 a ideal caliber for deer? My fathers is a .45 and fun to shoot in that caliber for me and my daughter in the off season would the .54 be a different animal in that regard?! My growing but limited understanding is that these old original flint hunting rifles were more likely to be down in the .40 cal range. Your thoughts??

Thank you!

 

[galamb]

My advice will go a slightly different way. I'm a bowhunter as well. Don't pull my recurve much anymore because my shoulder won't hold back the 51 lbs very well - have moved on to a crossbow. However, I digress.

But, because you are a traditional bow hunter I KNOW that you are used to hunting close, are patient and will wait for the shot, you are intimate with where you need to hit Bambi etc.

You are not bringing the perspective of a centerfire hunter only to black powder so compared to your bow you will see a flintlock as a pretty significant "advantage" when hunting, not a "short range hindrance" that is only necessary to extend a season a bit.

Because of all that, if you want to hunt with a 45 (if it's legal in your State) then I say go for it.

And if they allow a smaller caliber and you think you want to try that, I say you have the "experience" to ethically hunt with say a 40 cal.

I know and understand because I hunt Ontario Whitetails with a 38 cal, which IS legal, ethical, and more than enough for deer if I do my part which does NOT include having to get a deer or even get a shot at one to have a successful season.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

As for caliber, many folks consider anything smaller than the .45 not a deer caliber when shooting a patched round ball. In my state a .40 caliber rifle is the minimum for round ball and deer. Capabilities for calibers change a bit if you opt for a conical bullet. Plus there are a lot of factors other than bullet caliber when it comes to big game.

I use a .54 for deer. It has done quite well using a patched, round ball. I have found the recoil to be very manageable. At the time I was looking for anything .50 or larger, but I had living history concerns and a budget, that had nothing to do with effectiveness on deer. If a sweet deal on a .45 had come around, I would've bought that. I know hunters equally, if not more successful, with everything from a .40 to a .75 (musket). YOU have to know the limits of your rifle or gun and the load which you are using..., that's all there is to it. :wink:

So bottom line, the barrel must be an accurate shooter.

Dunlap Woodcrafts is right down the street from me. Good people to work with, and I've bought a replacement stock for a Bess from them. I'd have to agree with Mr. Steele's idea that you think about a kit from them. I'd look at the least expensive kit, which is listed under $800, to start, as you don't have a whole lot of coin wrapped up in it if it goes FUBAR. (As a matter of fact I'm looking at a kit from them to build a rifle for my son this year. )

The problem with waiting for part purchases, in my experience, is when you finally have the cash, the part isn't there. In the past, I scrounged parts for an extra Bess...when I went to buy the stock from Pedersoli, they had stopped selling them. That was good because I found Dunlap Woodcraft, but if not for them my project would've been done. Then I was working on a trade gun and had to wait 18 months for the Tryon Lock....., so you never can tell when a major component will or won't be available.

LD

 

[54ball]

OK There's two themes here.
1. You want a very nice heirloom quality flintlock rifle.
2. You have an interest in rifle building.

For your consideration.
Rifle building can is an expensive pursuit. When you add it all up, you really don't save any money over a reasonably priced custom rifle. By reasonable price I mean 2500 or so. You can buy a lot of rifle for that.
If you truly want a custom heirloom quality flintlock. Save your money, do the research and make the contacts. Most require 1/3 down and up to two years to pay the balance as the rifle is put on list and built. It may be more affordable than you think. So if you can save the money, that route is the way to go if you want an heirloom quality rifle.

Another option is saving the money and buying used. Many learning builders sell their completed projects to invest in the next. Here you can find some fair to very good rifles for little more than cost of parts but you have to look and know where to look.

IMHO LOP and big ect ect ect is sometime overstated. There's more to it. Try a rifle with a 13 to 14inch LOP this was pretty common in the era. You may find some designs fit really well.

If you want to build, that's really a different pursuit. While you don't have to have a lot of tools, you'll find that building a rifle has lots of hidden costs,nickle and dime stuff that adds up. For building consider the likes of Knob Mountain and Jim Chambers. Also invest in the "books". There is a skill set actually many that have to be learned to build a rifle.

Tip Curtis and others offer "in the white" kits.

All in all it's up to you and what you want. My main point is, there is no cost savings in building your own, you still have to pay but in different ways.

 

[gunmaker43]

Jim Kibler makes a downright fantastic "Kit" for 900 ! The workmanship is second to none--as is his finished rifles.
What I'm saying as a first timer you'd cut build time WAY down & have a quality rifle when finished.
He hangs out on American long rifle page.
Just a 2 cent thought...Go ahead with whatever you choose to do, and keep us posted, we like pics and questions are free.....good luck......Tom

 

[MSW]

Oh, Pinemarten, you're hooked for sure! (by way of disclaimer, there is no 'twelve step' program for this addiction)...

looking through the previous posts, I am impressed with the parts from Mr. Kibler. THe only possible downside that I could envision is the length of pull - you might want to contact them and see if a longer LoP can be had.

I started with the building hobby with a kit from Track of the Wolf - it was a Southern Mountain in .45. Silly me: I though that this was a tab-a-into-slot-b sort of deal... NOT ... luckily I was able to get it all together in time for Christmas. I've built a few others, so here's my take on it:

If you go with a precarve, you're pretty much stuck with what the carver sets out as far as the geometry goes. This can keep you from making some really expensive kindling, but it is a restriction that's not a show- stopper, but a restriction of which you should be aware. I've used precarves from Track and from Pecatonica (it is rumored that Track uses Pecatonica's precarves, by the way). Both were of high quality and provided excellent value for the cost. Then I got all brave and tried making a stock from a blank. I learned a very great deal: (a) if you make a stock from a pattern and a 'try stock' (more on this later) you get a custom stock, just like the big time expensive custom scatterguns, but without the five figure pricetag. (b) you can put some cast- off in it (more on this later), (c) I learned that a sharp chisel is a happy chisel but, (d) it is very difficult to get bloodstains out of an unfinished hardwood gunstock ... I just tell folks the truth - it adds character and, last, you save a little money ... beware the siren song of saving money... your time has value, too.

SO... depending on how much time you want to spend, a stock blank from Dunlap might be a good way to go.

Stuff you should get before you buy gun stuff: a volume of The Gunsmith of Grenville County, by Alexander. here's a link: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/303/1/BOOK-GGC-CAT18
(comes with their catalogue, which doesn't cost extra, and the catalogue is useful because many of their illustrations are full sized, which can be useful in layout and design)

This takes you through the build by steps, and (although lengthy) it explains why one step goes before another... being a died in the wool dumba$$, I like to know why something is going to happen ... you can get this book through Track - it is a bit on the pricey side, but (as it says in Ephiasians) be ye not afraid... the knowledge in this book will keep you from making mistakes which will cost you much more than the price of the book in parts you don't ruin, (at least, it was in my case; you may be smarter than I, but then again, if my kids are to be believed, the average housecat can make the same claim of intelligence) also, he explains how to make a 'try stock' out of 3/4 inch plywood. this will enable you to figure out the best length of pull, drop at heel, drop at comb, and (if you get creative) cast off TREMENDOUS! now, you have a stock that fits you exactly ... short version: get the book.

Another book you should consider is Recreating the American Long Rifle here's a link: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=recreating the American Longrifle

As regards the issue of swamped barrels, I would go with one. I put a radius rifled, swamped Colerain .40 in my own Southern Mountain rifle and, although it's not HC/PC, this is my favorite flintlock... a swamped barrel is wide at the breech, gets skinny in the middle and flares at the muzzle. This shifts the center of balance way to the rear, where it feels much better, but still has plenty of mass at the muzzle, which helps to keep that wandering of the front sight down to a dull roar. short version: spend the extra bucks and get a swamped barrel - you won't regret it!


On locks: Chambers locks are considered the industry standard - they are the most reliable locks I've run across, and Jim & Barbie are among the nicest folks you'd ever want to meet.

I get the impression that you might be leaning to a Southern Mountain style... for reasons of aesthetics, this is my favorite style (my penchant for swamped barrels notwithstanding). There are a number of pretty good parts sets out there ... I have been looking to one from Sitting Fox, but I'm not sure if they offer a version with a swamped barrel ... worth a phone call to find out. By the way, here's an article on Southern Mountain rifles: http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/B023_hALE.pdf

On tools: do not rush out and buy a "set" of chisels. (you probably already know that) because you'll spend a bunch of your hard earned, over taxed, God- entrusted dollars on stuff you'll probably never use. buy the best chisels you can get on an as- needed basis. Many of the wee bitty specialty chisels you'll need can be made from masonry cut nails ... search this site for instructions. as far as other tools, I would be lost without my drill press. you need not buy an expensive floor press - on of the benchtop models from Harbor Freight will do you fine... you can probably pick one from flea- bay for a modest sum. Another gadget which I find very useful is a but of allthread which I've sharpened to a point and bolted to the table of the drill press. Put a drill bit in the chuck, lower the spindle down and adjust the pointy part of the allthread until the points just touch, then tighten everything down... to drill a hole through something and be sure that the entry and exit will be where you want them is now simply a matter of clamping the part you want to drill in such a position that it won't shift when you got to make your hole.. no more trying to 'eyeball' the thing (if you're the slightest bit astigmatic - as I am -this is a recipe for disaster).

more ranting: cast off... cast off is taking the butt of the rifle and moving it (assuming a right handed shooter) to the right of the center line of the weapon ... this is particularly popular with scatterguns, but it is very nice in rifles, too. What you've done if you add cast off is to move the sight plane closer to the shooter's centerline, and then, when the gun comes up to make the shot, the sight picture is closer to the shooter's natural stance. Before I built my stock from a blank, I had never experienced this. Precarves do not (as far as I know) come with tis feature. I guess you could steam bend the stock, but I don't know what effect this might have on any of the inletting.

That's the brain dump for today ... free advice, and no doubt well worth the cost!

Keep us posted on your progress, and remember, we love pictures! :wink:

 

[Col. Batguano]

Amen to the hidden costs. Think about what you need for just the basics beyond the gun parts;

Adequate bench, lighting, climate control, comfortable seating. 2 vices or ways to hold the stock. Decent quality rasps, files, gouges, hammers, screwdrivers, gravers, calipers, straight edges. Drill or drill press, saws. Bits, taps, sand paper, stones, strops, jigs, stains, finishes.

And that's the basics. You can spend a bunch more if you want to buy really specialized tools, like air powered engraving tools, such as the Lindsey palm control unit, and power sharpeners like their diamond sharpening wheel, or the Tormec T-7.

And above all, knowledge and the patience to gain enough of it to not make mistakes. That's the most expensive of all. You can spend a ton on books, DVD's etc. but mistakes are even more costly.

 

[tenngun]

Look up barn rifle. Very plane, often lacking a butt plate, and flatter like a fowler or early style rifle. As your making the rifle you can adjust the pull to fit you and not have to worry about the complex fitting of a plate. Looks good hc in early penn to later southern style. I'm a little shorter the you, but find adapting to a short pull is easier then a too long.

 

[SgtErv]

It's interesting what you said about ToW kits. After refurbishing an older rifle I sort of caught the bug. However, I'm not so skilled that I'd trust myself with one of those kits. All the research I did suggested that they were decidedly not for beginners, and with the price tag I figured I'd just save enough to have one built. I'll make do with finding junker guns at pawnshops and making them purdy. (Very cool to do too.)

And, original poster, he's right. There's no 12 step process. And once you get a flintlock shooting...it's downhill from there! You're doing the right thing by researching and asking questions. Is there a muzzleloader club near you? It might be a good place to learn some things and network with like-minded folks. I just found one and learned that a very skilled builder is the VP. Might come in handy as you're learning the craft.