Tight 1860

[meaux]

Brand new 1860 army, looked & felt good out of the box. At the range shooting .454 rb on 20 grns 777 it shot sweet. However the hammer would snag a cap say 1 out of 4 shots, it was like the hammer had a cap magnet, and jam it on top of the next cap!! Had more misfires than I wanted. I pulled the wedge, cleaned it a bit, tapped the wedge back in place and the cylinder locked up solid!! After tapping the wedge back a wee bit it functioned fine. Any suggestions?

 

[Jimbo453]

That is normal for that revolver
If the cap problem bothers you try changing the nipples with those with smaller holes that has corrected the problem with several of my revlovers

 

[Kadmos]

It's interesting that you let us know the ball and powder used, but not the brand of caps..

My 51's seem to do the same thing fairly frequently with both remingtons and cci (worse with cci)

 

[denster]

The gun locking up when you tap the wedge in is a problem with arbor length being shorter than the arbor hole depth it fits in to. This is a common problem particularly with Uberti. The fix is simple. Measure the distance from the end of the arbor to the frame where the locator pins are. Then measure the depth of the arbor hole. The two need to be the same within a couple of thousandths of an inch. Get a washer at the hardware store that is slightly smaller than the diameter of the arbor hole and thicker than the difference in the dimensions. Sand, stone, file or whatever to get it to the right thickness and drop it in the arbor hole and check your fit. When you get it just right your barrel will meet the frame at the same time the arbor bottoms out. You can now tap in your wedge without any fear it will close up your barrel cylinder gap. You can either leave the washer loose or JB weld it to the end of the arbor.
By the way I see you are using 777. That is great stuff in cap and ball revolvers as long as you understand it does not tolerate compression like black powder. The ball should just touch the powder or lightly compress it and everything will be well and you will get great results. Compress it and pressure and velocity go haywire and it fouls like crazy.

 

[DanChamberlain]

Meaux

My wedges are always put in to the point where they are easily tapped out with a knife handle. In days of old, supposedly one could pull them with finger pressure.

As for the caps, don't think of your 1860 as a gunfighter's pistol though they were used for this of course. When cocking the piece, elevate the muzzle to 90 degrees and allow the caps to fall free. They hardly ever jam up when doing this.

If you don't like to elevate your muzzle to that degree or if your range prohibits this practice, just turn the pistol 90 degrees to the left or right depending on your "handedness" and you will likely solve your problem.

Dan

 

[madcratebuilder]

Sounds like your cap size is off. The caps need to fully seat on the nipple. If the are not seated the first hammer fall pushes them further on the nipple and uses up it's energy that's needed to ignite the cap.

The cylinder binding is a short arbor problem as you have been advised by DennisA.

 

[meaux]

The caps Remington #10 mooched from a friend. I do plan on getting some Treso nips and use RWS #11 caps, this set-up works well on my 1858. Yes the T7 is hinky if you ham-fist on the loading lever.
Thanks for all the help, this is one of the best forums on the WWW.

1 more question where is the "reply all" choice?

 

[Zonie]

"...I pulled the wedge, cleaned it a bit, tapped the wedge back in place and the cylinder locked up solid!! After tapping the wedge back a wee bit it functioned fine. Any suggestions? "
-----------
It's supposed to do that.

The wedge is tapered. Most of them are around .480 at the front end and about .520 at the rear.

The location of the slot in the cylinder arbor allows the tapered wedge to "adjust" the position of the barrel to the frame as it is inserted. The deeper it goes, the further back towards the frame the barrel is positioned.

The wedge should be inserted only to the point that the cylinder/barrel gap is slightly loose. Then leave it there.
The end of the wedge may still be slightly inside the right hand side of the barrel or it may be sticking out.

If the cylinder/barrel gap is too loose when the wedge is driven all the way in it indicates that the wedge and/or the cylinder arbor slot is worn and replacing the wedge is in order.

In your case, the tight condition indicates that you have years of potential life in your gun before anything has to be replaced.

 

[denster]

With all due respect they are not supposed to do that. The barrel cylinder gap is not meant to be adjusted with the wedge. The barrel should go on no further than when the lower portion meets the frame. Forcing it on further with the wedge puts undue strain on various parts and decreases the longevity of the arm. Uberti uses a tapered arbor fitting into a tapered hole to attempt to limit the forward travel. That works fairly well unless you tap the wedge to forcefully a few times and open up the tapered arbor hole in the frame. The wedge is an incline plane, a powerful tool, and can do this in short order. Pietta has a straight arbor and sometimes gets the depth right on the money and sometimes not. The best fix is still the washer in the arbor hole. It only takes a little time and you only have to do it once and it adds greatly to the longevity and usefulness of the arm.
Adjusting the barrel cylinder gap is done by facing off the back of the barrel if it is too close or facing off the flat on the barrel where it meets the frame if the gap is too large. Both require the proper tools unless you are really really good with a file. Barrel cylinder gap should be right at .003 optimum.

 

[mykeal]

Sorry. I believe Zonie is correct.

 

[madcratebuilder]

I agree with DennisA on the arbor issue. The arbor bottoms out in the barrel lug, that stop the barrel from contacting the cylinder. This is the first thing I do to any open top I buy. This eliminates any arbor or cylinder drag issues. It is impossible to push the wedge in to far. I set my barrel gap a littler looser than DennisA, I like .006-.008.

"Gunsmithing Guns of the Old west" by David Chicoine has an excellent article on the correct procedure for this.

 

[denster]

Madcratebuilder. I'm curious as to what procedure chicoine shows in his book for taking care of the arbor length situation.
I like the .003 gap because I load almost exclusivly with the cylinder out of the gun and always wipe the cylinder face and I don't have any concerns for nipple length/cylinder gap variations causing ignition problems. Just my take on that one YMMV.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Chicoine recommends two methods. First is to remove the arbor and weld the end. Then recut to the correct length in a lathe. This is labor intensive and requires tooling many do not have. I have done this on a revolver that already had a loose arbor.

His second method is to drill and tap the end of the arbor and install a screw with a head as large as the arbor and then fit as required. This is a fairly quick and easy repair.

I do a lazy mans repair, I machine a spacer for the barrel lug hole. When I get it the thickness I need I loc-tite it into the barrel lug.

I've read about using Devcon on the end of the arbor, I'm not sure about the longevity of this method.

When you use the wedge to control barrel gap it changes the angle of the barrel in relation to the arbor. One reason the revolver changes POI after R&R'ing the barrel.

I see now why your .003 gap is working out so well for you. You keep it clean!

 

[denster]

Thanks for the info. The lazy mans way is pretty much how I do it except I attach to the end of the arbor. I've found that Uberti is pretty consistent at being of .050 +- .003 on the larger guns and .032 +-.003 on the pocket models and I can get washers at the hardware store of the right diameter that are just the right thickness as the tolerance range on thickness is pretty large. Occassionally I have to whisker of a thou or two. Other makes I generally have to turn a plug and cut off the right thickness.
Interesting is with the ASM with all their usuall problems, particularly on later guns, are generally right on with arbor length. At least with the ones I've worked on. Generally they need attention to the forcing cone and facing off the back of the barrel as there is no gap. My Brownells forcing cone reamer and facing set has cut a lot of ASM steel.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I favor the "lazy hillbilly" method. First degrease the arbor and lightly oil the arbor hole. Then put a dollop of "JB Weld" on the end of the arbor. Slip the barrel onto the arbor, held vertically, and adjust the wedge to the desired cylinder gap with a feeler gauge. When the JB Weld has cured overnight it will come out stuck to the end of the arbor and is plenty hard enough to limit overtravel for the foreseeable future.

 

[denster]

How did civilization exist before JB Weld?

 

[mykeal]

How did Sam Colt survive without hand fitting all the arbors to the barrel assemblies?

 

[denster]

Do we know that he didn't? I don't know how closely Uberti, ASM (early)and the other quality makers follow the original design specs but they must consider this factor at least somewhat important as the arbor is tapered along the part that goes into the barrel. The arbor slot is likewise tapered. When the barrel is put on by hand the barrel taper will be fully engaged on the arbor at the same time the bottom flat of the barrel contacts the frame flat. You can force it on further with the wedge since the arbor is hardened but the barrel is not doing this repeatedly trying to adjust the b/c gap will eventually open up the hole in the barrel. In the meantime you have forced two tapers together and it will be really hard to take apart.
Some of the less expensive replicas use a constant diameter arbor and sometimes it doesn't extend to the bottom of the arbor slot in the barrel. With these the wedge can move the barrel forward after the bottom has met the frame. This, as madcratebuilder stated, can change the point of impact and it will also open a gap where the frame meets the barrel either bending the pins or wallowing out the holes in the barrel.
The simple fix of ensuring that the arbor bottoms out when the barrel meets the frame precludes any of this happening.
Sorry you don't see it that way but I still maintain that the wedge is meant to hold the barrel on the gun not make adjustments with.

 

[mykeal]

Do we know that he didn't?

I don't know that Colt didn't carefully hand fit each arbor and barrel assembly, but the very few (and admittedly sparse) descriptions I've read of his assembly process didn't mention it. They do mention hand fitting action parts, even to the point of designating experienced fitters as journeymen and requiring apprenticeships to achieve that position. I am assuming that if he intended no user adjustment he would have done so, and if it was as critical to accuracy as we seem to think, it seems reasonable that it would have been emphasized enough to be noticed. But maybe not.

I don't know how closely Uberti, ASM (early)and the other quality makers follow the original design specs but they must consider this factor at least somewhat important as the arbor is tapered along the part that goes into the barrel. The arbor slot is likewise tapered. When the barrel is put on by hand the barrel taper will be fully engaged on the arbor at the same time the bottom flat of the barrel contacts the frame flat.

Barrel taper? Is the hole that receives the arbor tapered at the end to match the taper (actually, bevel) in the end of the arbor? I didn't know that.

You can force it on further with the wedge since the arbor is hardened but the barrel is not doing this repeatedly trying to adjust the b/c gap will eventually open up the hole in the barrel. In the meantime you have forced two tapers together and it will be really hard to take apart.

I'm confused. Which tapers are we trying to force together - the one in the arbor slot against the one on the end of the arbor, or the arbor against the one in the barrel assembly hole, or the arbor slot against the barrel assembly hole? How does that 'open up' the hole in the barrel - is it lengthened or enlarged in radius, or just stretched out of round? I have not seen any such disfigurement on any of my Colts. And I've noticed no extra difficulty in disassembly either. Wouldn't 'opening up the hole in the barrel' make it easier to take apart?

Some of the less expensive replicas use a constant diameter arbor and sometimes it doesn't extend to the bottom of the arbor slot in the barrel. With these the wedge can move the barrel forward after the bottom has met the frame. This, as madcratebuilder stated, can change the point of impact and it will also open a gap where the frame meets the barrel either bending the pins or wallowing out the holes in the barrel.

Again, no evidence of such damage on my Colts, and it is certainly the case that some suffer from the 'short arbor' feature. I can see how, in theory, using the wedge to adjust cylinder end gap will cause variation in the alignment of the barrel and chamber axes, and thus affect POI; it also affects POA if one uses the front sight. However, I have a hard time seeing the angles involved as being very significant. Perhaps (and this is the most certain thing in all of this) my technique needs more practice to realize the effect.

The simple fix of ensuring that the arbor bottoms out when the barrel meets the frame precludes any of this happening.
Sorry you don't see it that way but I still maintain that the wedge is meant to hold the barrel on the gun not make adjustments with.

I certainly hope you didn't think I was claiming the wedge wasn't meant for holding the barrel on the gun - I assure you we agree on that. I'm simply adding that the cylinder end gap, which I see as important but not critical, can be adjusted using the wedge, and that Colt understood the user's circumstances would make that necessary, since parts would be interchanged in the field as repairs and salvage occurred.

 

[madcratebuilder]

I favor the "lazy hillbilly" method. First degrease the arbor and lightly oil the arbor hole. Then put a dollop of "JB Weld" on the end of the arbor. Slip the barrel onto the arbor, held vertically, and adjust the wedge to the desired cylinder gap with a feeler gauge. When the JB Weld has cured overnight it will come out stuck to the end of the arbor and is plenty hard enough to limit overtravel for the foreseeable future.

If all open top owners did this with their new revolvers I think we would see a marked reduction in problems. That "lazy hillbilly" method sure makes short work of it. Apparently it holds up just fine. How much shooting do you do with your open tops?