Thoughts on the next generation.

[fusil de chase]

Seems up here in P.C canada that the stock of new wildlife management participants (hunters) is getting thinner and thinner each year.

Part of the reason I think is the stereotypes associated with and the regulatory headaches of modern firearms.

Mirroring the decline of the hunting family is a burgeoning interest in 'organic food', 'Nose to tail eating', '100 mile diets' and a half dozen other vogue feel good ideas.

Now what if an urbanite tree hugger could for 500 dollars and a couple weekends worth of training time be transformed into a flintlock smooth bore toting bicycle riding meat hunter? Despite being the most Urban nation in the world (more Canadians per capita live in large urban centres then any other country) most Canadians live within a peddle of excellent small and large game hunting.

I am interested in developing a series of articles that would in a very K.I.S.S manner lay out the ecology and mechanics of acquiring free range organic meat (along with other sundry harvest) to the curious yet currently blind mass of potential new family hunters. The modern traditional methods of hunting i.e bigger, badder, more expensive r and more macho is a style which obviously is not attracting the last, current or future generation of hunters.

I have over the years introduced many urbanites (first through a good meal) to hunting but the complication/fear of firearms ownership seems to be the stumbling block.

I think that the flintlock smooth bore and the short range still/stand/blind hunting that goes along with it may bridge this hurtle.

What I'd like to hear from members here is what they think it would take to bring an interested yet ignorant woman or man to a point where they could head afield in search of mixed bag game. Ultimately it needs to fit neatly on not many pages.

I am also interested in thoughts on a design for a flintlock hunting arm that preserves as much of the traditional smarts and style as possible while lending it self to easy construction, modern materials and above all ease of cleaning. It is very important to keep the traditional look and feel and the aesthetic beauty of the guns we love (as no one can fear a fusil de chasse
or deny the simple beauty of a fowler) but where could historic correctness be sacrificed to achieve the goals above ( cheap, low maintenance etc). The ability to produce batches of a dozen at a time is a consideration as the point of sale/point of training would require tools for their students to purchase.

As a teaser for the builders and suppliers out there we all know that once bitten with the bug the likely hood of seeking more and more specific arms is very great.

Something to ponder on. Thougts appreciated

 

[kbuck]

Synthetic Bovine Growth Hormone?

 

[fusil de chase]

LOL> And a million other good reasons not to feed your kids the manure from the company store.

Not disrespecting cows here cause I am big fan of a heavy marbled steak but at organic prices it is hard to cover many plates with much protein. Further complicating this is the fact that it is now Illegal for a man to sell another man a hunk of beef. Gotta go through one of the 2 or 3 big companies or the red serge will show up or your door step :nono:
I think we can still buy/sell eggs but maybe they just a have not enforced that yet? As a work aroundsome folks own shares of dairy cows, meat cows, poultry and swine and 'hire' the farmer to provide the husbandry. Sad but true. My share ($1) of a jersey provides as much butter as I can buy at 2.50 pound! Heck I'd pay the dollar just to look at that beautiful creature.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

more Canadians per capita live in large urban centres then any other country

WHAT? :shocked2:
I don't know what your source is, but in 2008 Canada was 34th in the world for urbanization, and there is no way the housing would keep up for them to have jumped from 34th to #1 in three years. :grin:
But I digress..., on to your questions...

I would suggest you play up the "back to basics" idea of the muzzleloader, and the simplicity.

Add to that the idea of the perfect "free range meat source" in the venison. Folks who eat organic, free range beef, will say they want food as it was "intended" or the way grandma used to eat, etc. etc.

They often not only want chemical free animals, but also animals that lived humane lives. So how much more humane for the animals than being totally free to roam the countryside? Since we cannot live side by side with non-human predators..., wolves, bears, and mountain lions don't know not to eat children and the family dog, we need to be "responsible stewards" of the land and the wildlife, and so must be the predators..., otherwise the predators will be Chevy's and Fords, and Buics, and Toyotas. Not to mention the "lack of waste" with folks eating most of the deer instead of the folks who only eat the choicest steaks off a cow, and what spoils in the meat-case at the market gets thrown out. Home butchering means safer meat, no residual bacteria as you would find in a meat packing plant regardless if the animal is organic, AND probably much lower cost per pound eh? Also..., Don't forget to mention the use of some of the meat by homeless shelters too.

For guns, I'd stick with caplocks first, as they are rather simple in both shooting and cleaning up. THEN introduce the idea of the flintlock as the "advanced" version, only for the "highly skilled" person. Not that caplock hunters aren't skilled, but just as a selling point, eh?

Another advantage of the antique looking traditional firearm is that for some reason non-gun folks find them less threatening than something that is a modified modern bolt action rifle. AND..., further they don't have to worry about a kid or a burglar stealing the rifle and creating mayhem with it..., it's an antique system..., not like those evil American M16's and such.. :wink:

Finally, don't forget your success rate will be low for creation of hunters, but you should also foster "eaters". Folks with whom your new hunters can share the venison and the moose. I have several folks who can't or don't hunt, but they love a Christmas gift of venison, and so support hunters and hunting, and speak up in favor of it and...,
..., vote against anti-hunting and anti-hunters in the polls, because while they might not actually hunt, they understand how they too benefit from hunting.


LD

 

[Spikebuck]

I've introduced several people to muzzleloading since I started 12 years ago. None were new to hunting, though. Even though these were people that already hunted with bow and/or rifle/shotgun, and I let them shoot nice-looking traditional BP rifles, they did NOT want to invest even $500 in equipment in case they ended up not liking it. They bought those kind that can't be discussed here which one can get for under $200.

If the goal is recruitment, I don't know that's a bad thing as I'd venture to say that while some here started and stuck with Flintlocks, many of us "migrated" to more and more traditional guns.

Net, I wouldn't force any specific type of BP gun, but discuss the pro's and con's of all types and let them make up their mind on how they enter the sport. I'd be stressing ethics and methods of the hunt so they could be "succesful" as quickly as possible. Those that get hooked will probably transition in time anyway once they are comfortable in the sport and desire more challenge.

 

[roundball]

Wow...strikes me as a pretty ambitious undertaking.
If I'm understanding it correctly, the target audience you'd be going after...people living in the organic food mindset...are also usually the kind of people who are anti-gun, anti-hunting, etc.
But maybe I've misunderstood...

 

[MeatStick]

Keep in mind we are minorities in a liberal minded instant gratification society. Those who were not exposed to the proper way of living as a steward of the land likely won't get it. Most of those folks think hunting is what the self proclaimed trophy hunters do "that I refuse to watch" on TV. some of these humans are claiming there spot on the food chain by becoming vegetarians and they don't even know it. Keeping tradition alive is not a hobby, it is a committed lifestyle that most people can't hack. I have found the best way to be sure the tradition is kept alive is to teach your kids, nieces and nephews, they can't turn you down or quit. Good luck with your endeavor.

 

[hoochiepapa]

This is interesting. I used to subscribe to Mother Earth News because of the articles in there about "back to the land". Yes, there are some bunny hugger articles, but most folks who read that hunt and fish for their food, and try to do things self-sufficiently. THere are very serious people who would like to eat clean, grow their own, and provide for themselves. That would, in my estimation, be your target audience.

 

[fusil de chase]

Loyalist Dave, Thanks a bunch part of the reason for this thread was to acid test some assumptions and ideas that have been kicking around a working group and you coming along and replicating the results means good things. Thanks.


Your right I was wrong the stat is we are the fastest urbanizing country IIRC we are at 80% right now.

We can't go with caplocks though as that introduces the CFC/RCMP into the equation and adds that layer of hassle, fear. i.e storage requirements, licences, etc. If we were going to go with caplocks I'd replace them with a stack of 12 gauge cooey single shots.LOL. However the the lawyer in the corner is insisting we make the CFC safety program as pertains to muzzleloaders a requirement.

The beauty here is that we are not trying to convert CF hunters so there is no need to overcome misconceptions about reliability. Anyone that can turn a screw driver can install a flint :grin: . misfire? not much of a big deal on a road side rabbit. By the time any new hunter is starting over the barrel at a patch of moose they will either have moved on to a 30o win mag, they will have become proficient in setting up thier smoke pole or it will be the moose's lucky day LOL.

Meatstick I hear what you are saying here:
a committed lifestyle that most people can't hack. I have found the best way to be sure the tradition is kept alive is to teach your kids

My 8 and 11 year can kill, gut, transport, butcher and cook any beast in the forest. I mean on thier own with only enough parental support to maintain compliance with firearms/wildlife act regulations. BUT teaching kids is not half as important as teaching women. If Mom hunts the kids hunt if Dad hunts maybe the kids hunt. Teaching my wife (before she was wife) insured the continuation of the tradition. My daughters skill set insures her children's future etc etc. (p.s hope she has a bunch of daughters cause when I am old I want grouse and duck at least once in a while)

I agree that 90 percent of folks are lost causes and we are not targeting those people the folks in question have or will have expressed an interest in learning the skills needed to hunt.
My wife does some work with a group that teaches women to hunt/shoot/etc/etc they all show up as eager students.
We are merely trying to broaden the base to include urbanites who are already interested in improving their diet and learning wilderness skills. There is a demand for this and the idea is not to try and turn a rabid vegan into a seal clubber but to give an entry point into hunting that does not currently exist.

THere are very serious people who would like to eat clean, grow their own, and provide for themselves. That would, in my estimation, be your target audience./color]

You nailed it right on the square nail head. We just gotta show them how easy it all is. Smooth Bore Black powder Flintlock Muzzle loaders contribute greatly to the simplicity and that is where the hook will be.


Thanks a pile keep er coming

 

[fusil de chase]

sorry double tap

 

[fusil de chase]

Loyalist Dave:

Just got some feedback and this has been stolen from you:

the predators will be Chevy's and Fords, and Buics, and Toyotas/color]

Fits in well with the concept of 'pocket' hunting. (not an urban example but our elk this year were coming to a caller 50 yards from a well travelled road that has claimed more then a couple lives to wildlife collision)

But again this is not a process of convincing anyone of anything or of debating the merits of hunting it is a process of developing a program that will lead students to a simple and obtainable method of harvesting mother nature's surplus bounty.

 

[fusil de chase]

Almost 90% of the total population in growth in Canada since 2001 has occurred in the country's 33 census metropolitan areas (CMA).

Further to above from stats can.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I would never encourage anyone to start hunting with a flintlock, but if they have that notion I'll do everything I can to help. There are a LOT better choices of weapon for someone who has no background or experience. Modern flintlocks have the niche of being attractive to hunters who are willing (and able) to embrace the challenge of a more difficult weapon to manage in a hunting situation and accept there may be less or no shot opportunities in a season.

If someone wants to learn both - hunting and flintlock shooting - simultaneously they have doubled the steepness of their learning curve. It WILL be horribly frustrating and may spoil the effort for many. But, if they persist, successful or not, they have proven their character.

IMHO it would take many months of practice before going afield with a flintlock rifle to be proficient enough to hunt with it. For someone willing to do that - well that's why I am the moderator of this forum. Come in, ask and share, hale and well met friend, you are among kindred spirits.

When the student is ready a teacher will appear. If you don't understand the following you're likely not ready.

"Flintlocks are the best choice for hunting because they are not the best choice for killing." --Stumpkiller

 

[fusil de chase]

It takes months and months of prep to hunt with any arm! I'd say start today to maybe be ready to hunt in september 2012.

Of all the skills a new hunter needs to learn loading and shooting a flintlock poses no significant challenge. The bulk of the learning is about safety, game care and finding game. The process of killing it is pretty much the simplest part:
"Put this in there in that order, hold this there, pull this like this. Boom. OK now practice that till you can hit this lung size hunk of paper at 40 yards. or put 5 or 6 pellets in this paper cup at 25"

Creating extra 'mystery' is something folks like us do it is not something that the uninitiated come to the table with. No one is suggesting thrusting a stack of various thicknesses of patch an unknown bore and selection of powders at a total newb. We are planning on showing them that this gun, with this ball wrapped in this fabric with this much powder will produce this result.

Frustration is something that is experienced by someone who expects something different to happen then what is happening. New women shooters rarely if ever get frustrated when properly coached (no matter how close to the bull they hit) but every second 'experienced' guy on the range (with a CF modern arm) is dealing with some level of frustration half the time they pack up at the end of a session. I put a couple years in at the local gunsmith shop and let me tell you the frustration level that folks feel toward their new rem 700 or their ruger red label cannot be understated. Most times the problem's root is that they were an expert the day they picked it up. The guy that will wind down long enough to get educated usually finds his problem solved with out resorting to the shop rate. Point being give a person a decent gun, teach them how it works and how to care for it and they carry on happy for many decades.

Nothing is idiot proof and if a student can not follow the steps to load a flinter then he/she is going to have equal trouble with any undertaking Heck every 16 year old out there can pilot 100 hp of car down the road through traffic so I am sure a mature adult can handle 50 grains of BP and lead ball.


My 11 year old watched me load a muzzleloader and (under close supervision) proceeded to replicate the process. This aint rocket science we are talking about. My 8 year old insists (in vain hopes of shooting the 50 cal) on reciting the steps and safety precautions required to load and fire it.

The replication of mechanical actions and following a check list of precautions is all that is required to propel a sphere through space with an enough accuracy and energy to humanely kill an animal.

Most of us grew up shooting cartridge arms and our mentors had no interest in 'all that fuss and smoke' we think we have achieved some great thing by figuring out what really is not a big deal. In case I am not being clear the persistent myth of the flintlock as black magic voodoo which can only be harnessed by
those who have studied the mysteries for such a long span of time and with such intensity that their beards have grown unnoticed into their collars is a bit of pet peeve.

Note that I am not saying there isn't a lifetime of learning to be had in this great hobby. I know one half of one percent or less of what I know is out there for knowledge and I am keen to learn it all but I also know that one bore and two or three different loads can be used over and over again for decades with out adding one smidgen of new data to the old cranium. Personally that would bore me to tears but if all I wanted was to hunt 10 days a year it would serve me well.

Can't believe I gotta lobby for flintlocks as a hunting tool in the traditional hunting forum do they promote flintlocks over in the traditional long bow hunting forums LOL?

Just to be clear that in Canada if a new shooter starts today it is going to cost hundred of dollars, a weekend in a basement with a crappy instructor, the blessing of the state, his ex wife, maybe his doctor, maybe his employer, maybe his landlord and at least a 6-8 week wait while the federallys look him over. Then he is going to have to lug a vault into his house and if that vault is ever broken into he will be charged with some big time crimes.

All this to own a single shot 12 gauge, a reproduction long barrelled percussion gun or an old mdl 94 30-30.

What would you rather do take a weekend to learn how to load a 62 cal fusil or the above? Flintlocks and bows are the only way for a person to enter the hunting fraternity with out giving up alot of the most base protections of the law. Remember this is Canada I am talking about. I agree with your analysis in a State or City where owning a firearm does not come at the expense of your rights but here it is just too much hassle/liability/expense/uncertainty.

This is a thought out project trying to get folks hunting.

 

[Stumpkiller]

You don't have to lobby.

It was your target audience of "urbanite tree huggers" looking for "a free range source of organic meat" that gave me pause as to whether they might not better look elsewhere. Like a granola co-op.

Now, if you said an enthusiastic young or old person looking for a connection to their past and an appreciation of nature and closer bond with the prey animals . . . that's different.

 

[fusil de chase]

So just to bring this into focus in case anyone else wants to be helpful my original request for knowledge was thus:

What I'd like to hear from members here is what they think it would take to bring an interested yet ignorant woman or man to a point where they could head afield in search of mixed bag game. Ultimately it needs to fit neatly on not many pages.

I am also interested in thoughts on a design for a flintlock hunting arm that preserves as much of the traditional smarts and style as possible while lending it self to easy construction, modern materials and above all ease of cleaning. It is very important to keep the traditional look and feel and the aesthetic beauty of the guns we love (as no one can fear a fusil de chasse
or deny the simple beauty of a fowler) but where could historic correctness be sacrificed to achieve the goals above ( cheap, low maintenance etc).

We can start another thread if we need to about all the reasons for not hunting with a flintlock and all people that should not hunt with flintlocks but if you could contribute to the above query there are some folks out there that have a way to use the input to good effect.

As it stands the comments above pretty much say: frig it your wasting their time. maybe so? Just tell em "naw your all too stupid and ignorant to ever be able to figure out how to make a spark with a piece of rock"

 

[Stumpkiller]

OK.

I am interested in developing a series of articles that would in a very K.I.S.S manner lay out the ecology and mechanics of acquiring free range organic meat . . .

Articles for who to be published where? Do I get a byline in these articles if I contribute since I'm supposed to do your work for you? Or is this just alturistic work because I encourage flintlock hunting . . . but wait. That's what this forum is for. So why would I send anyone elsewhere?

You want a cheap, easy to maintain flintlock that any idiot can use. That's all of them. But to use one well and maintain it well requires commitment. You have to be up to the responsibility of maintenance in all it's ugly forms and devote 15 minutes of your life at days end required to clean up the traditional 'ol variety that has been around for the last 350 years. Quit trying to modify traditional muzzleloading. It's not that hard to begin with.

If you can convince a modern manufacturer to mass produce a traditional muzzleloader of quality with modern methods, material and metalurgy you are more successful than I/we here have been. "They" want to produce modern stuff that uses modern techniques and projectiles and require expensive peripherals with nothing to do with history or tradition. Then there are the flintlocks imported from India. Probably good enough for a casual freezer fill, if you can get them to go off.

A nice North West Trade gun is about as simple as flintlocks get. Uneducated, unlettered folks been using them since 1650 right up through the 19th century. Contact Matt at North Star West and he can set you up.

A good flintlock is going to cost $600 to $2,000; and right on up from there for better examples. I commend you for wanting to encourage new hunters to start there, but it is neither the cheapest or the easiest. If, however, someone wants to challenge themselves and take on the added expense of learning to use a flintlock that is a wonderful thing.

But we have all seen where the "added season" concept has taken the pursuit. Further and further away from traditional muzzleloading.


So, what does it take to get someone interested in using a flintlock? A mentor is the best. Someone to coach you through the first few shots. Or, lacking that . . . hey, how bout we make a forum and call it muzzleloadingforum.com where folks can go and talk to builders, shooters and like minded folks who will help with problems and concerns. ;-)

 

[Claude Mathis]

So, what does it take to get someone interested in using a flintlock? A mentor is the best. Someone to coach you through the first few shots. Or, lacking that . . . hey, how bout we make a forum and call it muzzleloadingforum.com where folks can go and talk to builders, shooters and like minded folks who will help with problems and concerns. ;-)

If you think about it, we have "articles" published here every day, by knowledgeable people who are more than willing to help others get started. New members are joining every day and their flintlock and hunting questions are being answered.

If someone wants to help promote flintlock hunting, become a Premium Member and help us keep the information flowing. :grin:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/mpp/mpp_subscribe.php?

 

[smoothy]

I understand that Canada, as you explained, requires a lot of time and money to own and use a cf rifle. And shooting flintlocks is a way out of the mess and that the cost in the long run may be less to go that route. Here in the states requirements for muzzleloaders are less than cf rifles, although not to the extreme. A problem today is getting the young'uns off the pc's and gaming (a lot of gaming includes shooting,etc). Pulling them out into the woods for the real thing, which requires more patience and accepting that you aren't always going to win (bagging your whitetail). That there is responsibility for carrying a gun and that when you shoot that something living can actually die. Not just a bloody mess on a screen that can be turned off at any time. And your hands are going to be bloodied. And your are going to eat that once living thing. And we don't do it out of necessity to sustain our lives, but to carry on a tradition. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against it at all. I have 5 sons and 2 of the older ones have only hunted with muzzleloaders. The oldest got started with cf's. The 2 youngest are too young at this time (4 & 5).
The point I'm trying to make is: it's going to take a lot more to turn things around and it goes beyond getting interests into flintlocks. Although that is a good step.

 

[Spikebuck]

people living in the organic food mindset...are also usually the kind of people who are anti-gun, anti-hunting, etc.

I saw a hunting show last spring by a guy whose show is completely devoted to using hunting as a food gathering tool and not as a "sport." In several episodes I never saw him hunt for anything other than a pure "meat" hunt. First legal critter is the game. This show was on Nat'l Geo channel, I think. Definitely not on a "hunting" channel.

In one episode he was in, of all places, San Francisco with a group of "organic food" people who literally go into Golden Gate park and pick edible "stuff" to eat. He was there teaching them meat gathering techniques to supplement the veggies...in this case he could not shoot in the city limits, but actually used a fresh roadkilled woodchuck and was teaching them fishing with primitive handmade equipment. They were all very interested and not "anti-meat" in the slightest.

Each show literally showed field to consumption including gutting, meat prep, and cooking. All in as tasteful a way as can be presented on TV with a general audience.

Watching that show a few times opened my eyes a bit that there may be a growing contingent of people who are currently vegan, but not anti-meat as I would have thought. It was refreshing, to say the least.