The GOEX Plant is shutting down

Help Support Muzzle Loading Forum:

unclelouie

Pilgrim
Joined
Feb 21, 2018
Messages
40
Reaction score
36
Two things: insurance is more powerful than the government to many companies.
Our small aviation charter business (5 planes) was doing pretty well, making a small percentage profit, then the insurance company presented us with a $1 million bill for the next 12 months, payable in 30 days, in full. No safety issues, no accidents, no warning.
We closed the business.
Next:
Osha, epa, etc are simply rules and regulations. Follow them or suffer the wrath of uncle sam.
But companies must carry lots of insurance, and insurance inspectors make osha, et al, look like boy scouts.
Like banks with loans, you do what they say, when they say, and how they say: immediately. When they say jump, your only reply is how high and which way.
Insurance has only a couple of underwriters such as Lloyd's at the top. Everyone ends up under the same umbrella, no matter who you purchase from.
Hodgdon likely saw rates go up beyond the cost of capital repairs, if not just simply canceled outright.
Millions, no doubt. Many, many millions to reopen.
I have a variety of issues with Hodgdon and I am not very fond of them.
But the reality is likely as I just described.
Even profitable, low debt (or even debt-free) companies rarely have millions sitting in their checking account.
Fewer yet will spend millions on a piece of paper that promises to cover your losses, but if a violation of their rules is found after an event, well, you get zip, nada, nothing.
Unrestrained civil suits and billion dollar law firms have driven us to this point.
And most politicians are lawyers.
Few are poor.
 

unclelouie

Pilgrim
Joined
Feb 21, 2018
Messages
40
Reaction score
36
you hit the nail square on the head. Our small muzzleloading club (12 members ) pay yearly $750.00 . to shoot on a state owned shooting facility. we shoot as a club. if we weren't incorporated, and wanted to shoot with the modern guns, which we don't, there would be no need for insurance. were in Utah.
 

CaptainKirk

54 Cal.
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Messages
2,029
Reaction score
579
Bluedot (Hercules/Alliant), is the only powder I have left now. Everything else I have to start from ground zero. Shotgun, Handgun, Muzzleloader. Rifle, no worries, there's 40 powders for every caliber. It just plain sucks. I guess I can only pray someone buys Goex, and I'm switching to mostly Alliant powders from now on....
...Alliant on the other hand has better powder now, but their data is horrible. They haven't come up with a new load in 10 years at least. If you look at their data from the early 2000's it's baffling how much they used to have. Every year they delete some, but never get more.
I'm just going to buy Alliant powder, and use my various reloading manuals. Due to the weird place shotgun components are in, substituting and swapping is the only way to load anymore. Forget the SP16. Claybusters wad works for lead shot at least. The worse loss is the SP10. That was the last lead shot plastic 10 gauge wad.
Guess again. Alliant is controlled by Hodgdon.
In their defense, I read that the issue with Hodgdon is that most of their powders are manufactured offshore and they are being hampered by the same issues everyone else is now.
 

megasupermagnum

45 Cal.
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
546
Reaction score
432
Location
Aberdeen, South Dakota
Guess again. Alliant is controlled by Hodgdon.
In their defense, I read that the issue with Hodgdon is that most of their powders are manufactured offshore and they are being hampered by the same issues everyone else is now.
No they are not. Alliant is owned by Vista Outdoors, and has nothing at all to do with Hodgdon.
 
Joined
Jun 17, 2019
Messages
2,207
Reaction score
1,649
Two things: insurance is more powerful than the government to many companies.
Our small aviation charter business (5 planes) was doing pretty well, making a small percentage profit, then the insurance company presented us with a $1 million bill for the next 12 months, payable in 30 days, in full. No safety issues, no accidents, no warning.
We closed the business.
Next:
Osha, epa, etc are simply rules and regulations. Follow them or suffer the wrath of uncle sam.
But companies must carry lots of insurance, and insurance inspectors make osha, et al, look like boy scouts.
Like banks with loans, you do what they say, when they say, and how they say: immediately. When they say jump, your only reply is how high and which way.
Insurance has only a couple of underwriters such as Lloyd's at the top. Everyone ends up under the same umbrella, no matter who you purchase from.
Hodgdon likely saw rates go up beyond the cost of capital repairs, if not just simply canceled outright.
Millions, no doubt. Many, many millions to reopen.
I have a variety of issues with Hodgdon and I am not very fond of them.
But the reality is likely as I just described.
Even profitable, low debt (or even debt-free) companies rarely have millions sitting in their checking account.
Fewer yet will spend millions on a piece of paper that promises to cover your losses, but if a violation of their rules is found after an event, well, you get zip, nada, nothing.
Unrestrained civil suits and billion dollar law firms have driven us to this point.
And most politicians are lawyers.
Few are poor.
You got that right!
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
1,678
Reaction score
1,332
It's very likely that plant maintenance was a factor in the closure. Parts for black powder mills are no longer being manufactured; parts must be custom made at huge expense.
 

zimmerstutzen

70 Cal.
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
5,571
Reaction score
557
Insurance can be a major headache, but I don't know why anyone would risk being without it. When I opened an office, the landlord, an insurance agent, put a clause in the lease that I have a one million dollar general business policy naming him also as an insured. He also gave me a written quote for such a policy through his agency that was around $2,250 a year. I shopped around and found the exact coverage he wanted from another company for less than $200 a year. My first secretary at the firm I was with in Maryland, had car insurance through Allstate and was constantly whining about the cost. I kept telling her to shop around. Eventually, I said look, I will buy lunch if you go down the street and meet with the Liberty Mutual agent about your car insurance. Just bring back a quote. She got better coverage and saved over $1,000 a year. I am with Erie and have been for over 20 years, but I still shop around every two years, just in case I would find a company cheaper for the same coverage.
 

SPQR70AD

40 Cal
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Messages
385
Reaction score
304
Two things: insurance is more powerful than the government to many companies.
Our small aviation charter business (5 planes) was doing pretty well, making a small percentage profit, then the insurance company presented us with a $1 million bill for the next 12 months, payable in 30 days, in full. No safety issues, no accidents, no warning.
We closed the business.
Next:
Osha, epa, etc are simply rules and regulations. Follow them or suffer the wrath of uncle sam.
But companies must carry lots of insurance, and insurance inspectors make osha, et al, look like boy scouts.
Like banks with loans, you do what they say, when they say, and how they say: immediately. When they say jump, your only reply is how high and which way.
Insurance has only a couple of underwriters such as Lloyd's at the top. Everyone ends up under the same umbrella, no matter who you purchase from.
Hodgdon likely saw rates go up beyond the cost of capital repairs, if not just simply canceled outright.
Millions, no doubt. Many, many millions to reopen.
I have a variety of issues with Hodgdon and I am not very fond of them.
But the reality is likely as I just described.
Even profitable, low debt (or even debt-free) companies rarely have millions sitting in their checking account.
Fewer yet will spend millions on a piece of paper that promises to cover your losses, but if a violation of their rules is found after an event, well, you get zip, nada, nothing.
Unrestrained civil suits and billion dollar law firms have driven us to this point.
And most politicians are lawyers.
Few are poor.
and people wonder why they moved many businesses to brutal oppressive "communist" China where they do not hate you and want to rob you if you open a business
 

SPQR70AD

40 Cal
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Messages
385
Reaction score
304
Insurance can be a major headache, but I don't know why anyone would risk being without it. When I opened an office, the landlord, an insurance agent, put a clause in the lease that I have a one million dollar general business policy naming him also as an insured. He also gave me a written quote for such a policy through his agency that was around $2,250 a year. I shopped around and found the exact coverage he wanted from another company for less than $200 a year. My first secretary at the firm I was with in Maryland, had car insurance through Allstate and was constantly whining about the cost. I kept telling her to shop around. Eventually, I said look, I will buy lunch if you go down the street and meet with the Liberty Mutual agent about your car insurance. Just bring back a quote. She got better coverage and saved over $1,000 a year. I am with Erie and have been for over 20 years, but I still shop around every two years, just in case I would find a company cheaper for the same coverage.
million dollar coverage for less than 200 a year? is this post from 1930?
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2005
Messages
6,217
Reaction score
1,168
Location
Colorado
Interestingly, I have purchased unmentionable powder directly from Hodgdon in the past month. Very few choices available. Three of the five purchased were made out of country.

As of yesterday, Powder Valley had Scheutzen ff & fff.
 

zimmerstutzen

70 Cal.
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
5,571
Reaction score
557
million dollar coverage for less than 200 a year? is this post from 1930?
no but it was the cost of the policy I had in 2001. My Umbrella policy costs about that now, but I already have $500,000 coverage on my car insurance., with stacking, that means my family members are insured up to 1.5 million if injured by some cluck with no or limited insurance. My farm policy is expensive however. ($4k a year) I have shopped around and it will be one of the reasons we will be moving off the farm next year.
 

CaptainKirk

54 Cal.
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Messages
2,029
Reaction score
579
No they are not. Alliant is owned by Vista Outdoors, and has nothing at all to do with Hodgdon.
I stand corrected. I was thinking of Accurate. My bad.
That being said, Hodgdon does own or control Accurate, Winchester, IMR, Ramshot and Blackhorn in addition to all the Hodgdon powders and BP subs they market; Pyrodex, Triple 7, etc.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 3, 2018
Messages
1,320
Reaction score
1,743
Location
New Mexico/Florida
From my understanding, Hodgdon is selling the Brand and the powder works in
Louisiana as a package. I predict that the brand will sell, but not the works.
Everything said above in this forum is true. The powder business is small for
black powder but steady. The big issue they faced,I believe is two fold:
1) all the liability based/lawsuit/ insurance issues as mentioned here, and,
2) the stuff we don't know which maybe, only the powder industry lobbyists
know or are privy to. I ran a large heavily regulated corporation in a past life.
The outside world just saw the seeming exterior success--but in fact, I was
battling in secret wars on every front. Only the Hodgdons know the what and why.
And, because they are seeking to sell, they would be fools to layout their private
reasons in full.
 

megasupermagnum

45 Cal.
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
546
Reaction score
432
Location
Aberdeen, South Dakota
It appears Hodgdon and Alliant have a distribution agreement. That's something different, and only makes sense considering Hodgdon's main purpose is as a distributor.

It is bizzare that Hodgdon owns as many brands as they do. They are a distributor, not a giant corporation like Vista outdoors. They have had Winchester/Olin and IMR forever, but then bought Goex in 2009. Hodgdon had been fairly consistent for something like 50 years at this point, and Goex has been around forever. Nothing monumental happened for almost a decade, then all of a sudden Hodgdon is pulling the rug out from under us. They got rid of a lot of the Hodgdon/IMR duplicates, which I think is a good choice. They also got rid of a ton of other powders. They bought Western Powders last year, so what do they do? They discontinue more powders. Now they discontinue an entire brand, Goex.

Every time I see a company do weird stuff like this, it almost always is because they know they are headed for a chapter 11 bankruptcy. Remington did it, the NRA did it, the company I worked for did it.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
3,936
Reaction score
4,656
I stand corrected. I was thinking of Accurate. My bad.
That being said, Hodgdon does own or control Accurate, Winchester, IMR, Ramshot and Blackhorn in addition to all the Hodgdon powders and BP subs they market; Pyrodex, Triple 7, etc.
Western Powders, Inc owns and controls the Accurate brand name as well as Ramshot, Blackhorn, Montana Extreme and the distribution of Norma powders in the U.S. About a year ago Hodgdon bought out Western, increasing their monopoly.

A couple three years go Western moved the production of Accurate from Belgium back to the states at the General Dynamics facility in St. Marks, Florida.

Hodgdon doesn't and never has manufactured any smokeless powder, and the only manufacturing they were ever involved in was Pyrodex and I am not sure they even do that themselves anymore. They are just a wholesaler\distributor

Western Powders, Inc.

Propellant Profiles | Handloader Magazine
 
Top