texas underhammers

[walruskid1]

So I am guilty of being wrong

and man enough to admit it. hats off to you runner. :hatsoff:

 

[lanedh]

Runner:

Can you explain to us what bars underhammer guns from shoots? Maybe the folks who complain the loudest about 'unfair advantages' of underhammers (whatever they might be) need to be re-educated. I can understand why guns of the type I am not aloud to say out loud on this Forum would be barred, as many come with telescopic sights or laser optics, but an ordinary underhammer such as appears often on this Forum has much more in common with a side hammer shooter of PRBs. What's the problem then?

Brgds, BJ

 

[Runner]

Nope, can't explain it past the possible reason that they did not exist until the very end of the fur era. I have never heard anyone say that the underhammer was banned because it gives the user an advantage. I have been to several events where the rule was no cap locks that fire directly into the powder column because of that reason. That bans inlines, underhammers, and side slappers. The intent is to shut down the technology race to try and beat someone else with technology rather than personal skill. No shaders, peeps, chew straps, or cheaters in your glasses allowed either. You want to win, practice with the technology of the times.
I personally think the buggy type guns make a very nice hunting and target gun. They are just not correct for most gatherings. The events I tend to enjoy the most try to set a date of 1790 to pretty much completely eliminate anything but flinter long guns from being period correct for that event. The halfstock cap guns are tolerated because they are where most start out and no one wants to drive off the newcomers. Either way, the underhammer is not given that consideration.
I don't make the rules so I am just guessing from conversations over the years.

 

[faw3]

And I was nice enough to not use your name, oh and I have a ad from a Ind newspaper for underhammer rifles just in from the EAST dated 1827. AND now know where a flintlock UH is, he wont let me take pics or even pick it up. (but I've seen enough to know why they ALWAYS went off with anykind of spark. I was'nt makeing fun of ya, you just see it that way Runner,a "amount ofr us that knew better watched ya running around yelling the 'SKY IS FALLING" and when ya hit that wall after a few "the wheels are comeing off" it was Different to read what ya wrote, at least ya didnt have some pis.. as...thing to say about being wrong. :thumbsup: Fred :hatsoff:

 

[Runner]

I am glad you found more information about what interests you, but it still does not interest me at all. I pretty much stay out of the underhammer stuff because of it. Your mention of me and a previous discussion is the only reason I am in this one.
I always admit it when I am wrong FW. That is part of being a man.
What does 1827 have to do with 1790, and I believe that makes me wrong by 13 years not figuring access to the technology itself across the nation. That is what I said already.
If you don't wish to have me in the discussion, leave me out of it.

 

[faw3]

I pretty much stay out of the underhammer stuff because of it. You sure, you want to put that? Maybe you should go back to the org post I was talking about,you did jump right in on me. Myself Im shooting my one and only flintlock much more than my UH's, it's a blast wish I hads tryed it years ago. And I'm sure not the one to tell anyone who can or cant be in something. ( this stuff eating me up inside (no not aids) will have me in the ground before the year is out and I'll be out of your way ,if I was in it. Have a good day,any day I wake up alive is a good day to try and raise my kid right before Im gone. Fred :hatsoff:

 

[Runner]

Your not in anyone's way that I know of, but I am still asking that you leave me out of things. I hope you have a blast shooting whatever you want to shoot!
I was proven wrong and I now act differently about that subject FW. That is what being wrong usually causes. I don't decide who shoots anywhere either.
I am sorry you are sick. I don't want to fight with you. Please just leave me alone if this is all you have to offer tho. I don't come here for conflict.

 

[faw3]

myself :v fred :hatsoff:

 

[kenaiken]

Looks like I'm the guilty party. I'm the author of "The Gunshop of Nicanor Kendall," "Bootleg Pistols," "The Water-Proof Rifle," "Underhammer Rifles," and related stuff. Despite six years of research into Kendall, I have more questions than answers, but much of what has been written about the history of gunmaking in Windsor, Vermont is incorrect and I hope to set the history straight.

First. No, Kendall County has nothing to do with Nicanor Kendall or any Kendall in his family tree and I've not found any surviving records that give any specifics of this order.

Second. So far, I've not authenticated a single example of a Kendall rifle that has a serial number the predates 1837. William B. Smith was a partner in N. Kendall & Co. and his personal rifle bears serial number 1 and "Smith's Pat." I would appreciate specifics and serial numbers from ANY Kendall rifle.

Third. William B. Smith was David Hall Hilliard's brother-in-law and when the prison shop was closed (a long, well-documented, political story) Smith and Hilliard continued to produce Kendall-style rifles and pistols (although they became much more elegant) across the river in Cornish, NH. Hilliard became the primary customer for rejected Model 1841 rifled musket barrels supplied by Robbins, Kendall & Lawrence, and later Robbins & Lawrence. Furthermore, Kendall underhammers exist that are stamped Kendall & Lawrence (1844), Robbins, Kendall & Lawrence (1845-47), and even Robbins & Lawrence (1848-1856). Rumor is that Kendall & Hubbard and Kendall, Story & Hubbard stamping exist, but I've never seen them and for a number of reasons suspect the rumor is false. However, I would like to know of ANY stampings or proof marks on any Kendall firearm whether underhammer, side lock (yes, he produced these, and the Bennett & Haviland chain rifle, the Whittier Revolver, the Kendall Harmonica Rifle, and probably the Jacquith Revolver).

Finally, any questions or information would be welcome. Please address to [email protected] Names and addresses of owners of Kendall guns will always be kept confidential, but the information about the individual firearms (caliber, length, markings, etc.) will be published.

 

[kenaiken]

Some of the finest, most accurate target rifle made during the last half of the 19th century were underhammers. Long after multi-shot, cartridge firearms became popular, underhammers were still being handmade for competition and used by the fledgling National Rifle Club. Artemas Leonard made real beauties and John Demeritt's were famous. Some of these match rifles had 20-pound barrels!

 

[kenaiken]

Fred, I'd dearly like to see a photocopy/scan of that 1827 advertisement. Wouldn't happen to mention Leyland would it?

 

[kenaiken]

I have a letter regarding a shipment of barrels from Remington to N. Kendall & Co. One can pretty much assume that all Kendall barrels were made in New York, although the rifling and shaping was done in the prison shop.

 

[Zonie]

Ken: Welcome to the forum.
You say. "...So far, I've not authenticated a single example of a Kendall rifle that has a serial number the predates 1837..." which is interesting.
It does bring up the question, have you seen any authenticated documentation of percussion underhammers which were made and sold by a gunsmith prior to that date?
zonie

 

[gmww]

Thank you Ken and welcome to the forum. Your specifically addressing the Kendall underhammers. I'm assuming your not addressing all other makers of Underhammers foreign and US made. The Book Underhammer guns By Herschell C Logan has a long list of pre 1800 and post 1800 makers.

FW (Fred) wrote me once that the Texas Rangers use to have an underhammer displayed. I've been unable to confirm where it went as it no longer is on display according to Fred. I posted a link here sometime ago about one of the Underhammers that made it to Texas. It was to a news article that has since been removed. I wish I had cut and pasted it. Hopefully Fred will recall what town that was in.

EDIT:

Victory, Tx. paper August 30, 2006 had an interesting article about Juan Linn a Texas revolutionary. His Underhammer was being put on display. At anyrate, they paper no longer has the article up and I can't find it in the archives.

The paper by the way is the Victoria Advocate.


Ken this might be a good place to check to see if that gun is still on display.
:thumbsup:

 

[faw3]

KEN FUNNY THIS SHOULD POP UP AFTER SO LONG BACK, DAD IS IN ICU HAS BEEN FOR A FEW WEEKS BUT I TRYED TO ASK WHEN I SAW THIS AND HE SAID THRU THE PIPES IN HIS MOUTH ECT HE SENT THE INFO TO GMWW BUT ITS IN A RIFLE AD IN A NEWS PAPER PAGE IN 1 OF BARIDS 2 HAWKEN BOOKS OR IN ONE OF THE 2 HANSON CAME OUT WITH ABOUT THE SAME TIME -TRY" PLAINS RIFLE" ONE. ( DONT KNOW HOW TRUE CAUSE DAD COULDNT GET BACK INTO THE TEX RANGERS RECORDS (THEY HAVE A MESS OF THEM IN WACO) BUT THEY HAD 3 UNDERHAMMER RIFLES BACK AROUND 1988/89, THE CARD WITH 2 OF THEM SAID THEY GOT SECONED TO THE RANGERS FROM? NAVY/ARMY AS IN THE PATERSON COLTS.ILL TRY AND ASK AGAIN BUT CANT BE SURE HE WIL EVEN KNOW WHO I AM RIGHT NOW.BLAINE

 

[gmww]

Hi Blaine your dad is correct. He did send me a copy I blieve of the add. I thought I had posted it here. I haven't checked all my posts. Also I've been searching for it at home. I keep your dad's mail in a file. For some reason it didn't make it there. :redface:

I'll keep checking. What was interesting about the add was that it also included an add for Hawken rifles. Point being they were in the same time period.

 

[gmww]

I FOUND IT! Ok its actually the scan of it from before. It was of a photocopy so its not the greatest. Also the mention of it having the Hawken add above is incorrect. I believe I got that bit of information from FW.

Here it is.

 

[gmww]

Ken: Welcome to the forum.
You say. "...So far, I've not authenticated a single example of a Kendall rifle that has a serial number the predates 1837..." which is interesting.
It does bring up the question, have you seen any authenticated documentation of percussion underhammers which were made and sold by a gunsmith prior to that date?
zonie

I contacted the National Firearms Museum and got this response.

Dear Glenn:
>
> Thank you for your inquiry to the National Firearms Museum.
>
> Yes, we do have a serialed N. Kendall underhammer rifle in the
> NFM collection - serial #44. Probably the best show to run into these guns
> would be the Maryland Arms Collectors Show coming up in mid-March. At a
> past show, I believe part of Hershel Logan's collection was being offered
> for sale through a collector and you might be able to track this collection
> or parts of it if you were to attend this next year's show.
>
> We have no details on any Texas sales of underhammers.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Doug Wicklund
> Senior Curator
> National Firearms Museum

I forwarded the email to Ken who replied.

Dear Glenn,
Serial number 44 would place its manufacture in the year 1836 or
1837. Without a month and day for the filing of Smith's Patent, I
can't be certain as to the exact date. I've not found any surviving
specifics for Smith's patent for an improved stud lock -- probably
because of the patent office fire and the resulting loss of tens of
thousands of documents and models. It appears that Smith never
bothered filing after the fire (many inventors didn't). Since Smith's
personal rifle is marked as serial number 1, all serial number can be
assummed to follow sequentially from late 1836 or early 1837.
Could you please provide me with some additional information
about your rifle for my files? Thank you. Ken

 

[Zonie]

Quoting the ad (as best as I can read it):

"...in this market a supply of single and double barrel rifles, smoothbores; rifle and fowling barrels, fitted to the same stock, to be used alternately at pleasure, slide repeating rifles, and rifle pistols, with cases of plain or ??gant fashion..."
___________________
Not to digress from the theme of this post, but the reference to a "slide repeating rifle" got me digging.
In the book "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" by Louis A Garavaglia & Charles G. Worman there is some mention of this(?) gun.
On page 66 it says:
"Although revolving rifles did gain limited acceptance in the 1830s and 1840s, there were other ways to make a repeating rifle besides using a rotating cylinder. In February of 1838 Nicanor Kendall & Co., advertising in the St. Louis Missouri Republican, declared that they would have "constantly in this market a supply of single and double barrel rifles [and] slide repeating rifles. "Kendall's "slide repeating rifle"-later termed a "harmonica rifle"- was designed around a rectangular iron bar, bored with five chambers at right angles to the bar's long axis. Releasing a spring catch on top of the frame and manually sliding the bar from left to right (or visa versa) brought one chamber after the other into line with the bore...
...By 1842 Jonathan Browning, a clever self-taught gunsmith of Quincy, Illinois (a port on the Mississippi), was making his own "slide gun," which according to the customer's preference could fire between five and twenty-five shots without reloading..."
zonie

 

[gmww]

It just so happens that a Kendal Harmonic Rifle was at auction.

Lot 334. VERY RARE KENDALL PERCUSSION HARMONICA RIFLE
Est: $9,000.00 - $12,000.00
SOLD: $10,350.00

Getting back to the topic. I think the best lead on a Texas Underhammer would be through the Texas Rangers in Waco. Any of you Texas types wanna give them a call? :grin: