stateside and hitting the range....

[54MAN]

well im stateside and been hitting the range to sight in before deer season....and honestly my 3 muzzle loaders are giving me fits...starting to frustrate me a bit lol i know its not me altho i make no claims to amazing shooting but i have recently sighted in my M4 for 300 yards with consistent 4-6 inch groups...and open sighted ak at a 100 yards with 4 moa...so im not the worst shot in the world... the 3 muzzys are a traditions deerhunter 50. 24 inch barrel 1:48 twist, fixed 2.5 power scope, pedersoli frontier rifle 54. 39 inch barrel 1:66 twist dual trigger regular buckhorn sights, and a lyman trade rifle 54. 28 barrel 1:48 twist lyman 57 peep sight... starting with the traditions i worked up a load and settled at 70 gains of ffg and was getting 2-3 in groups at 50 yards, the trigger is HORRIBLE...i know its throwing the shots off a bit...i need to start filing on it and get the trigger pull down to something normal... the kicker is moving the target back to a 100 and....cant get a shot on a 2 by 3 foot target the projectile is a hornady 490. ball with a prelubed 15 patch... got ONE shot on paper and it was LOW... last inch on the paper...i know 70 grains isint a heavy charge and 24 in barrel is a lil short but...dropping 1 to 2 feet at a 100 yards??? the lyman load is at 90 grains 530 ball same 15 pre lubed patch... first shot 10 in high and 3 to the right at 100 yards... made adjustments and...1 in right and 6 high...adj 4 in high adj...2 in high 1 in left,at this point im happy and make a fine adjustment to put me dead center... i never hit the target again..made 5 more shots changing nothing and no cigar... :cursing: soooo needless to say i left the range very frustrated.... ill be trying again monday...this time i will be using a 535 ball with the same patch, speaking of patches the pre lubed worked well...rifling marks but no cutting or tearing...they looked like i could actually reuse them...(surprised since these guns are new...expected to see some cutting) so if anyone has some ideas about how to fix the trigger pull on the deerhunter, or gen advice or tips feel free before i hit the range again monday... the powder im using is pyro ffg AND fffg....yes i want black...but you use what you can get right?? ight i need IDEAS!!!!

 

[BrownBear]

Assuming the guns and loads are still okay, it makes me wonder about your bench technique. Everyone is different, but I grab the rifle as I normally would, then rest my forehand on the rest (rather than resting the barrel or stock on the rest) and my rear elbow on another rest. Pretty darned solid and no change in POI when I go back to offhand shooting. Oh, and if I want to be especially steady I scooch forward a little so I can rest my torso against the bench with my arms rested as described.

Mmmm. One more thing is that lock time and lag time for the ball to get out the bore is a lot slower than what you are probably used to now. Follow-through after the trigger is pulled is real critical offhand, but a little less so from the bench. Might be something to watch in any case.

Basically, you can see that I'm trying to strip away variables before you move on to the sights and loads. That will be lots easier if your technique is good. If you're already doing all this stuff, time to focus on the loads and sights, however.

 

[necchi]

Most Traditions locks have a screw in the tumbler too adjust the amount the sear fit's in the notch.

This is a basic spanish lock;

See that screw? Look for that in yours and turn it down,, but not too far,, keep it safe man.
I'd be lookin at the scope and mounts if it's that far off

 

[majg1234]

go back to 25 yds and start looking for groups to settle in before you start fiddling with too many things at a time,patch ball and powder first THEN mess with the sites to get POI you want with your POA .unless you changed triggers in your M4 I doubt that any of the ML triggers are much worse...certainly better than most AK's but triggers are easily fixed just do one thing @ a time don't get in too much of a hurry or you'll waste a lot of Valuable time Oh and thanks for your service Hoooooaaaah!!!

 

[54MAN]

brown bear.. noted on the shooting tech...i did notice the effect of poi when i was resting the gun without "holding" the front down lol so i know shoot as you describe when shooting muzzys, sweet on the lock screw... crazy as it seems at this point the deerhunter is outshooting the other high dollar guns and when i fix that trigger pull it will be soooo much easier..just dont know why the ball would drop so much from 50 to 100 yards... groups are all touching at 25 yards...next go around at the range all my shooting will be at 50 since 25 apparently isint telling me much...

 

[BrownBear]

..just dont know why the ball would drop so much from 50 to 100 yards...

With that charge and short barrel sighted in dead on at 50, I'd expect it to be hitting about 8-10" low at 100 using iron sights close to the bore. If your scope mounts are tall, I wonder if that has some relationship to the extra drop, considering crossover point between line of sight and trajectory. Dunno, but speculation is cheap.

BTW- With my 32" barreled GPR and 80 grains of 3f, I'm roughly an inch high at 50, dead on at 75 and around 3" low at 100. If I dropped the POI at 50 down an inch, it would still push me down to 6" low or so at 100, even with more and hotter powder plus the longer barrel. I have a 50 cal Frontier flinter also with the 39" barrel, but trajectories are virtually identical to 100 yards.

As for the Lyman and Pedersoli's, if both are new you just might be suffering a little from the New Barrel Blues. In both of mine it took 100-200 shots for them to really settle down and reach their full accuracy potential. Both will break 2" at 50, and if my eyes were younger might do the same even out at 100.

Keep shooting thoughtfully, and keep us posted!

 

[54MAN]

hmmmmmmm the scope rings are a bit higher because they are see through... i didnt think about the projectiles arc maxing at 50 and starting its decent after 50 instead of continuing higher... i do believe your right on about that... :applause:

 

[gearheart]

I think you are onto it. I f the ball only gets to the line of sight by 50 yds that's peak and it will fall into the basement from there. First crossover should be around 25 yds then high at 50 and back in the money around 75-80 and a little low at 100. :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Just because you have 3 different .54 caliber barrels does not mean they are all the same BORE Diameter. You have to measure them.

NOW, what are your spent patches telling you about what is going on inside the barrel when the gun is fired???

If you are shooting the wrong ( Undersized) ball or too thin a path, or are using the wrong, or inadequate patch lube, the patches will be torn or burned or both, and the ball goes any direction. If you don't have a good gas seal, the ball is likely to hit far lower on the target, if it hits the target at all at the longer range.

With this short amount of time to try to get any of these guns ready for deer season THIS year, you need to find an experienced MLer to work with you to get your technique down, and help you work on these groups. Its hard enough to work with just one gun; trying to work up three guns is a bit more of a challenge than even experienced shooters should tackle. NO?

 

[54MAN]

the deer hunter is a 50 and the lyman and pedersoli are 54 with diff rot.. the patches look outstanding... i could almost reuse them..no tearing or cutting..i tried the .18 patches and they were, lets say a very VERY difficult to load even after swabbing between shots, the 15 patches are much easier and as mentioned showing zero signs of anything bad..i need to see about posting some pics cause i was shooting pics of the patches and target groups and the 15 vs 18 patches...when i tear the deerhunter apart and get the trigger fixed and up the powder charge by 5 or 10 grains, adjust poi at 50 i BELIEVE it will be good to go...will know for sure monday... just leaves the other 2 to "theorize" to death..

 

[majg1234]

sounds like an idea to me.....but if the groups are touching @ 25yds except for the change in trajectory from 50-100 grouping should be similar,horizontal spreads are you (for the most part) vertical spreads are related to sites and trajectory,I'd concentrate now on the easiest to shoot well 'cause the season is on ya and maybe later work on the others BTW you may find that see through scope mounts are a liability unless you do something to assure cheekweld is always the same a scope is not a EOTECH or AIMPOINT where check weld is not so critical,I long ago gave up seethroughs because of my inability to hit well with a scope mounted on one of course that was just me good luck and "make meat"

 

[paulvallandigham]

Remember that Lyman rifles come with a particularly nasty sealant in the barrel that has to be removed with strong solvents- like Acetone, before you can shoot them worth a tinker's darn! If you don't flush those new barrels out, before loading and shooting them with Black Powder, they do terrible things to you accuracy.

I flush my barrel with alcohol- usually the cheaper Isopropyl alcohol I can buy for less than a dollar for a large bottle. I do run a drying patch down the barrel after I pour the alcohol out, because the evaporating alcohol will condense moisture in the bore.

If you aren't showing cuts or slits, or torn patches, then you have some unusual guns right out of the box. Usually, you find either sharp burrs on the lands, or sharp burrs on the forward edges at the "crown" of the muzzle.

Measure the bores of all these guns, anyway. You need to know. It eliminates one source of problems when You KNOW what you actually have, not what some clown on a production line, concerned with getting more " units" out the door than accuracy, puts on the barrel. If you didn't take the gun apart, and inspect the lock to make sure all screws were snug( NOT TIGHT!) and that there isn't a lot of wood chips, and debris in the lock mortise, you are leading a charmed life. Same goes with the barrel and tang. Most wood stocks come with NO finish on the wood in the mortises. Correct that. If the stock uses pins, the holes in the barrel hangers should be lengthened sideways to allow for expansion and contraction. Otherwise, the barrel warms off with a fast shooting session, expands, and binds itself up in the stock, throwing shots for you.

This happens with all gun with wooden stocks. Seal the wood to keep it from swelling in high humidity, and shrinking in dry conditions( winters around here). Allow for some expansion and contraction in both guns that use "keys" to hold the stock to the barrel, and those that use pins.

The percussion hammers should have a triangular shaped( hair-lip) cut in the skirt at the front of the hammer. This is to allow the cap to break its grip when fired, and allow it to be easily removed from the nipple after firing. Not all these imports come with this, and some that have them, don't cut them deep enough.

Mark the top of a new nipple with some kind of marking dye- lipstick does it, but then so does lampblack. Lower the hammer onto the nipple, then cock it back to full cock to see if the face of the hammer, inside the skirt, is making full contact with the top of the nipple. Usually, it isn't. Grind the part of the metal on the face that does have dye transferred to it( its the high spot) until you have a full "donut" ring showing on the face of the hammer. This insures reliable ignition, and longer lasting nipples.

The nipples provided by the factory on these guns do not have a very good reputation. Order replacement nipples made of stainless steel, or spend a bit more for a "Hotshot", or " Spitfire" nipple. If you don't know the correct thread size for your nipple, call the suppliers on their 800 numbers, and they will know which thread pitch you need. Write it down for the next time you need to order or buy nipples.

 

[54MAN]

ok...i know this has taken me a hot min to get back on this but here goes...i take back ANYTHING about seeing nice patches after they were shot...i dont know what i saw-picked up-and took pictures of cause....i started shooting at 50 yards and the deerhunter was throwing lead all over the target, worked my loads up and down, made sure the shooting tech was good and the trigger was muchMUCH more manageable...gave up and started shooting the frontier rifle and was shooting 3 1/2 groups at fifty..messed with the loads a lil but didnt change alot...still a lil frustrated i was walking back from the target and noticed alot of "black spots" on the ground...closer look and... they were my patches, or i should say what was left of them. Completely destroyed, ripped apart not even ROUND. it seriously looked like a dinosaur chowed down and then spit them back up...the frontiers patches were still nice and round but had very small holes where the rfling cut...BUT just wanted to let you guys know where i was on it and that at least now i KNOW...still cant figure out what patches i was looking at and taking pictures of for reference the first time at the range smh

 

[BrownBear]

Now your results are making sense! The path to improved accuracy is a lot clearer now.

 

[54MAN]

yea tell me about it...at least i feel alot less like throwing the rifle and shooting at IT with a gun that does shoot right lmao....

 

[Rifleman1776]

Several things I see here. Three rifles you are trying to dial in just before deer season. :shocked2: That is a formula for frustration. Pick just one. The Traditions jumps out as the best candidate for me because of the sett triggers and slow twist. Get the other two behaving after deer season when you aren't up against a deadline. Your charges and ball/patch combo look OK for starting. With the target at 50 yards, shoot, shoot, shoot. If from a bench, rest the rifle at the point where your non-trigger hand grasps ther forestock. Even better, hold the rifle and rest yer hand. For consistency, I like to swab between every shot. If you let gunk build up you will never know what the gun will do on that first 'cold' shot. Lot of good advice given by others so far, but at this late stage before deer season, I would go with using the KISS principal. As for drop at 100 yards, just 'kentucky' the hold about six inches high then recover yer ded deer. Good luck. Enjoy and let us know what happens. And thanks for your service. atriot: