"Sporting target rifles?"

[rickjf]

I was looking for photos of percussion rifles hawken style etc and came across this collection Most are describes as target rifles but look like plains rifles to me.

 

[tg]

Nice looking guns, likely used for target and/or general use, some target guns of the late percussion era were very specialized if I recall,One of these appears to have a vernier or similar fold down sight and all have set triggers, good grip spurs,I would guess them to be in the 1850-70 period, others more versed in the later ML period will likley have more detailed observations. I would think that if a man was a hunter as well as hobby shooter or immigrant to the west the same gun if of sufficient bore would serve multiple purpose.

 

[rickjf]

The description said these were made in Philadelphia and one in California. As I was looking I found this site of "Texas guns" of a similar style. http://www.texasguntrade.com/texassportingrifles.htm
They look a lot like the "CVA Mountain rifle"

 

[JV Puleo]

Many part of the country were literally "hunted out" as early as the 1830s. Shooting, however remained a popular sport in an age that didn't offer golf, boating, football, baseball, television etc... In the northeast (New England, which I am most familiar with) there was nothing much bigger than a squirrel to shoot at, and very little woods to hunt in, well before the Civil War. Much of New York was likewise cleared.
The woods only began to come back when the western plains began producing grain is such quantities that farming in the east, other than dairy farming, died out. Large areas of the mid-west were much the same although in that case, it was because the land was far too valuable for grain production.
Bear and deer were still available in northern New England but you had to travel to them. Ned Roberts makes a good story about going from Pittsfield, MA (on the northern border of the state) to visit relatives in New Hampshire where he could hunt bear. This was in the 1880s. Today I imagine the Pittsfield area is overrun with deer but they were just about non-existant in Roberts time.

Rifles that were suitable for both target and occasional hunting use were very common in the east and the mid-west. I suspect that far more of them existed in the east than on the western frontier where the average immigrant was more likely to be armed with a cut-down and converted smooth-bore musket. The calibers tend to run from .38 to .45 or .47. This is smaller than rifles of the 1800-1830 period which all tended to be .54 or larger. They often have two sets of sights, one for hunting and provision for attaching a target rear sight. Which they were used most for I've no good idea but I've mostly seen them in the target shooting configuration.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Nice looking guns, likely used for target and/or general use, some target guns of the late percussion era were very specialized if I recall,One of these appears to have a vernier or similar fold down sight and all have set triggers, good grip spurs,I would guess them to be in the 1850-70 period .

Because these guns all have modern technology they should not be used in a traditional hunt correct. Ron

 

[Trench]

I looked at the link you provided. There is a pictorial of a Texas Half-Stock flintlock sporting rifle estimated to have been made in 1840. Interesting that the maker chose a flintlock 20 or so years in to the percussion era.

 

[BrownBear]

Many part of the country were literally "hunted out" as early as the 1830s. Shooting, however remained a popular sport in an age that didn't offer golf, boating, football, baseball, television etc... In the northeast (New England, which I am most familiar with) there was nothing much bigger than a squirrel to shoot at, and very little woods to hunt in, well before the Civil War. Much of New York was likewise cleared.
The woods only began to come back when the western plains began producing grain is such quantities that farming in the east, other than dairy farming, died out. Large areas of the mid-west were much the same although in that case, it was because the land was far too valuable for grain production.
Bear and deer were still available in northern New England but you had to travel to them. Ned Roberts makes a good story about going from Pittsfield, MA (on the northern border of the state) to visit relatives in New Hampshire where he could hunt bear. This was in the 1880s. Today I imagine the Pittsfield area is overrun with deer but they were just about non-existant in Roberts time.

Rifles that were suitable for both target and occasional hunting use were very common in the east and the mid-west. I suspect that far more of them existed in the east than on the western frontier where the average immigrant was more likely to be armed with a cut-down and converted smooth-bore musket. The calibers tend to run from .38 to .45 or .47. This is smaller than rifles of the 1800-1830 period which all tended to be .54 or larger. They often have two sets of sights, one for hunting and provision for attaching a target rear sight. Which they were used most for I've no good idea but I've mostly seen them in the target shooting configuration.

:thumbsup:

Really good perspective, and a reminder that the terrain we see today is in no way reflective of what was going on 150 years ago. It's pretty easy to take the view out your window today and personal preferences to try to "prove" the way it was long ago. Nuff sedd.

 

[tg]

These are some very interesting guns, I like the 1840 flintlock, not what most would expect to be marketable at that time, we don't see a lot in the way of replicas except by chance, of these later period ML's probably because they were swallowed up by the introduction of the cartridge gun and most think of ML's as being finished when the cartridge guns came to be, which is in a way the end of the ML era as such but they were still in use untill.. today, but for most practical purposes the reign of the ML ended during the civil war or thereabouts simply because we "need" a time that denotes a change in an era of technlogy so we don't see or hear a lot about the later types, but they are pretty nice guns for those with a taste for the late ML styles.

 

[torn moc]

NEWHUNTER

THATS a Fantastic link! Thaks for posting it!! :thumbsup:

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Great post, intersting pictures. :thumbsup:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

NEWHUNTER

THATS a Fantastic link! Thaks for posting it!! :thumbsup:

I second that emotion! Thanks a lot. :thumbsup:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Nice looking guns, likely used for target and/or general use, some target guns of the late percussion era were very specialized if I recall,One of these appears to have a vernier or similar fold down sight and all have set triggers, good grip spurs,I would guess them to be in the 1850-70 period .

Because these guns all have modern technology they should not be used in a traditional hunt correct. Ron

No, these rifles have period technology and are entirely period correct. If you do not understand the differences between these fine rifles and the modern ones then I feel very sad for you. Perhaps, if you pay close attention, and try very, very hard you will one day understand. :v

 

[rickjf]

Here is the description that was with the first group of rifles. Very similar to the Texas rifles. I don't see any dates on these but bet they are same period 1830-1860

336. EARLY FULL STOCK PENNSYLVANIA BENCH RIFLE. Cal. 52. Unusual heavy barrel Lancaster style Kentucky rifle converted from flintlock to percussion with 35-1/2" very heavy barrel, 1-3/16" across the flats at the muzzle. In a full length very dark tiger striped stock with 27 very nicely engraved German silver inlays. The top flat of the barrel has a brass Rocky Mountain type front sight and fixed rear sight with engraved patterns forward and aft of both sights, the top flat engraved in script letters "A B" between the breech and rear sight. The tang is fitted with a tiny lollipop sight adjustable for windage and elevation, the square back lockplate is marked "CONESTOGA RIFLE WORKS" with some light engraving. It is fitted with double set triggers, the front of which is a decorative turned peg. It is also fitted with brass furniture which includes two ramrod guides and a nosepipe with long trigger guard and faceted crescent buttplate with toeplate. The right side of the stock has a 4-piece very nicely engraved brass patchbox with heart filigree. The left flat, opposite the lock, has a skeleton brass sideplate that is engraved with braided patterns. The wrist has a period of use repair incorporating three brass plates each secured with four iron screws to repair a shattered wrist
337. D. FISH HEAVY HALF STOCK PERCUSSION TARGET RIFLE. Cal. 45 Perc. Deluxe half stock rifle with 33-3/4" heavy octagon barrel, 1-3/16" across the flats at the muzzle, the muzzle is recessed. Silver Rocky Mountain front sight and fixed rear sight, the maker’s name on the top flat behind the rear sight, engraved breech, top tang, lever and hammer with two narrow and one wide gold bands on the breech. The top tang missing its lollipop sight, the shielded nipple has a platinum blow out plug. The back action lock is unmarked but engraved in fine Arabesque patterns and the hammer in a dolphin pattern, German silver furniture consisting of a plain forend tip, turned nosepipe, plain wedge escutcheons and very fancy engraved trigger guard and elaborately engraved buttplate. The right side of the buttstock has a small Arabesque pattern inlay, the left flat of the barrel just in front of the breech is stamped "Cast Steel" and there are vice marks on both side flats, the bottom of the barrel has an iron rib with two iron guides containing a replacement hickory ramrod. The once piece half stock is of highly figured walnut with a very fine checkered wrist.
338. S. JACKSON HEAVY HALF STOCK TARGET RIFLE. Cal. 50 Perc. Heavy target rifle with 36-1/4" octagon barrel, 1-1/16" across the flats at the muzzle. Fine, silver Rocky Mountain front sight and fixed buckhorn rear sight, marked on the top flat between the breech and rear sight with the maker’s name and "PALMYRA". The barrel has a bottom rib with two iron guides containing a hickory rammer with brass tip on one end and iron worm on the other end, appears to be original. Stock is nicely grained with iron fittings and a pewter nosecap, secured with a single wedge through oval iron escutcheons, left side of stock has a heavy cheekpiece and the right side a plain 2-piece iron patchbox. The buttplate, which was probably nickel plated, is crescent shaped with a decorative toeplate, the lock is plain and unmarked. The hammer, possibly a replacement or having undergone repairs, as it is dark blue color apparently from being heated. The trigger guard is also iron with double set triggers.
339. JOHN WURFFLEIN HEAVY PERCUSSION BENCH RIFLE. Cal. 58 Perc. 33" heavy octagon barrel, 1-1/4" across the flats at the muzzle, bone blade Rocky Mountain front sight, semi-buckhorn rear sight, marked on the top flat with the maker’s name and "PHILADA" and again on the back action lockplate, is mounted in a heavy walnut half stock with pewter nosecap, German silver furniture, two wedges, double set triggers, checkered wrist, shadow line cheekpiece and crescent butt with toeplate and a simple 2-piece German silver patchbox in the right side. The top tang has an early heavy tang sight adjustable for elevation only.
340. A.J. PLATE HEAVY PERCUSSION SPORTING RIFLE. Cal. About 52 Perc Smoothbore. Half stock percussion rifle by a well known San Francisco maker, 34" octagon barrel, 1-3/16" across the flats at the muzzle, the top flat marked with the maker’s name in large letters and "San Francisco Cal" in smaller letters. It has a dainty Rocky Mountain front sight blade and fixed semi-buckhorn rear sight, the breech and top tang are nicely engraved with Arabesque patterns and two platinum lines around the breech, the forearm has a brass tip and the forearm is secured with two wedges through oval German silver escutcheons, engraved single lockplate screw through a German silver escutcheon. The lockplate, hammer and bolster are also engraved in fine Arabesque patterns. It is fitted with double set triggers, a fancy brass trigger guard, checkered wrist with simple 2-piece brass patchbox and a brass crescent buttplate and toeplate. The wrist is checkered with a tiny round thumbplate and another on the belly of the stock, the barrel has an iron bottom rib with two iron guides containing a brass tipped hickory rod.
341. SLOTTER PERCUSSION HEAVY HALF STOCK SPORTING RIFLE. Cal. About 50 Perc. Very nice Philadelphia made heavy sporting rifle with 33-3/4" octagon barrel, 1-1/8" across the flats at the muzzle, with German silver Rocky Mountain front sight and fixed rear sight, the top flat marked "SLOTTER & Co PHILA", the left flat is marked "WART/GAIN TWIST/551". The long skinny back action lock also marked with the maker’s name and city, the barrel has an iron bottom rib with two iron guides containing brass tipped hickory rammer that is probably an old replacement. It is fitted with double set triggers and a fancy brass trigger guard with crescent brass buttplate and toeplate with long skinny finial. It also has a heavy pewter nosecap with a single wedge through German silver escutcheons

 

[rickjf]

I bet a little work on one of those "Mountain rifles" would make a nice looking Texas frontier rifles.

 

[tg]

", if you pay close attention, and try very, very hard you will one day understand'

I would not hold my breath on that one...

If one cannot grasp the concept of a peep/aperture sight circa 1850 and a conical bullet of the same period as being different from a sight and bullet circa 2000 give or take a few years there is little hope, it is like the trains I mentioned earlier there were trains in 1850 and there are trains now but they are in no way the same as far as performance or any other measure of comparison except that they share the same general descriptive nomenclature and run on tracks(which are also different) this is a lost cause Russ,there are none so blind as he who will not see.

 

[rickjf]

the .45 cal J.C. PETMECKY rifle could come out of a modern catalogue.

these guns show where the modern so called "replica hawken" style comes from.

they do represent a sort of general style of that period.

 

[tg]

Some of the later MLs do resemble the TC hawken but the TC gun was not styled after anything in particular they just made a gun with a enough of the old to look old timey and enough of the new to appeal to those used to modern rifles, less drop in stock, modern sights and shorter barrel , with a twist that favoured their Maxi, which was based on artilary rounds which also used the driving bands, they tried a lot of original bullet moulds but found none to their satisfaction, there is an article in an old BP Digest (1978?)that covers the birth of the TC Hawken that outlines the above mentioned info.

There is some resemblance, I wonder how the rate of twist/rilfing depth, and average barrel length, and drop in stock might compare between the originals of that period and the new guns.

 

[rickjf]

Id like to know that as none of the info discusses rate of twist. The "drop" of the old stock seems much greater and there seems to be less wood, no sharp edges on the wood.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Nice looking guns, likely used for target and/or general use, some target guns of the late percussion era were very specialized if I recall,One of these appears to have a vernier or similar fold down sight and all have set triggers, good grip spurs,I would guess them to be in the 1850-70 period .

Because these guns all have modern technology they should not be used in a traditional hunt correct. Ron

No, these rifles have period technology and are entirely period correct. If you do not understand the differences between these fine rifles and the modern ones then I feel very sad for you. Perhaps, if you pay close attention, and try very, very hard you will one day understand. :v

I think he was being facetious.

 

[tg]

"I think he was being facetious.'

A lot of that going around lately.. :rotf: