SMRs and long barrels

[brazosland]

Simple question…in a time 1820/30s when barrel lengths were generally getting shorter in pretty much every style of rifle…

Why were SMR/Tennessee rifles made with such long barrels?

Powder quality should not have been an issue by that time. Smaller calibers certainly didn’t need 42 inch barrels to make good velocity. The only thing I can come up with was that target shooting was much more common than anything else and the long sight radius was an advantage.

Maybe the long barrel “hanging” better for accuracy as well?

Opinions? Documented facts?

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I believe they were shot off of a rest, for bother target and hunting.
I spent the day with Jerry nobles collection and many of the smrs were 48 inch barrels an went 10 to 14lbs

 

[wiscoaster]

Very interesting question. Posting only to suscribe to thread so I can learn what those "in the know" have to say.

 

[pacanis]

I don't know if they thought the same way about accuracy back then, but apart from sight radius like you mentioned, the longer a projectile is in a barrel the more the barrel can affect its flight. I would think someone would have figured that out.

 

[wiscoaster]

Has anyone here chronoed two black powder rifles side-by-side having different barrel lengths but same caliber, same balls, same powder load?

With a smokeless powder centerfire cartridge gun a longer barrel length typically equates to greater muzzle velocity, but smokeless powder burns at a much slower rate than black powder, so after ignition it's still burning and expanding and producing more propulsive pressure as the bullet accelerates down the barrel.

I have no idea what's going on with black powder and a ball in a muzzle-loader gun barrel, but I suspect that has a lot to do with the answer to the barrel length question, if someone would be so kind as to give a lesson here.

Then of course there's the spin induced by the rifling, but I think that length effect would be similar for both, no?

 

[54ball]

Longer barrels increase velocity. There's a lot of debate about this but they do. Also the long sight radius is a benefit. Small caliber long barrel, you get that supersonic longrifle Crack!!!!

As Mike mentioned, a lot of these are found very heavy. Many of these are dedicated target rifles. An Over-the-Log-shoot, or a meat-shoot was a cultural thing. The dedicated log shoot guns are often found with a block like appendage on the forestock just for the log shoot.

Bore size gets smaller as the Indian threat subsides. This also corresponds with dwindling game. The elk, the buffalo, the deer and the Indians, pretty much in that order, became scarce in the South.
What was left was hogs and bear. Larger caliber guns are often referred to as Hawg or Bar Rifles.
Not all of these longrifles were for the over the log shoot. Even a heavy rifle can make a squirrel gun. A long muzzle heavy gun hangs on the target well. Also, the hunter was not "woodsrunning" to harvest the very elusive squirrel.

Sometimes these are found with what's called pommel wear. Thinning of the forestock where the rifle rests on the saddle pommel.
It's just as likely this is from wagon seat wear, especially on the later heavier guns.

 

[longcruise]

There are other factors besides barrel length. Here are two first hand tests or experiments, if you will, that I have done and the results.

Two 54 caliber rifles. One a 28" barrel tc Hawken. The other a 32" barrel Lyman GPR. Off to the range with the chronograph!

Both rifles were loaded with the same balls, patch and lube. If memory serves, the charge was 80 grains goex ff. The 28 inch barrel shot an average of 70 fps faster than the 32" barrel .

That was unexpected! The difference?? The TC 28" barrel was quite a bit tighter than the GPR. All the way down a tighter load. The tighter the load the more inertia. IOW, the more it takes to get it moving. The more it takes to get it moving the more efficient the powder burn and therefore higher velocity.

The second experiment was with the same GPR as above. The Lyman GPRs have a much rougher bore than the tc. The TC was bored and then button rifled and is much smoother leaving the factory. The GPR are (actually "were") bored and cut rifled. Much rougher and lots of machine marks. At the time I was doing a lot of firelapping of modern guns and I decided to firelap the GPR. When it was completed I chronographed it afterward with the same exact components and now it was even slower. The same explanation comes into play; the smoother barrel is now less resistant and there is less inertia therefore less velocity. The same comparison if it were redone would have had the shorter tighter barrel shooting even faster than the 32" GPR.

Anyone who has a chronograph can test this for themselves. Shoot a regular load and patch and then compare with a very tight load (thicker patch or larger ball. I predict tighter will be faster.

I've observed the same thing with lube differences. Compare with all the same components except use a very slippery lube and compare to less slippery. Dutch's dry patch system is tighter and shoots faster than any of the slippery stuff all else being equal.

None of this are suggestions on what you should choose to shoot in your gun. These velocity differences are not necessarily worth pursuing. They just illustrate a few factors that effect how the differences.

 

[wiscoaster]

Thanks for the detail!! I guess the summary is: there's a whole lot more at play than just barrel length. And @longcruise conclusion.

 

[ETipp]

If memory serves me correctly, I have read that with a longer barrel of the early years, it was much more conducive in this sense. If they wanted to shoot bigger game, they loaded a heavier charge. Squirrels or other small game, less charge. The author stated that the ball hit the same place.

In short, the longer barrel made it possible to conserve powder and still be accurate.

I believe I still have that information somewhere. If I can find it I will post reference.

 

[tenngun]

Has anyone here chronoed two black powder rifles side-by-side having different barrel lengths but same caliber, same balls, same powder load?

With a smokeless powder centerfire cartridge gun a longer barrel length typically equates to greater muzzle velocity, but smokeless powder burns at a much slower rate than black powder, so after ignition it's still burning and expanding and producing more propulsive pressure as the bullet accelerates down the barrel.

I have no idea what's going on with black powder and a ball in a muzzle-loader gun barrel, but I suspect that has a lot to do with the answer to the barrel length question, if someone would be so kind as to give a lesson here.

Then of course there's the spin induced by the rifling, but I think that length effect would be similar for both, no?

Lyman did extensive testing. It works out to about ten feet per second per inch. On lower powder charges long can actually slow a ball.
Short barrels were seen on guns in the sixteenth century, and guns with five foot barrels are known.
I think a lot was style. No short barrel rifle or smoothie looks ‘right’ to me.

 

[ETipp]

Lyman did extensive testing. It works out to about ten feet per second per inch. On lower powder charges long can actually slow a ball.
Short barrels were seen on guns in the sixteenth century, and guns with five foot barrels are known.
I think a lot was style. No short barrel rifle or smoothie looks ‘right’ to me.

Absolutely a lower powder charge can reduce velocity due to drag. Ideal is whenever the gasses from the powder is completely burned by the time the projectile reaches the muzzle.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Simple question…in a time 1820/30s when barrel lengths were generally getting shorter in pretty much every style of rifle…

Can you show us your documentation on why you think this premise is valid?

So some rifles made for those going West of the Mississippi, were shorter barrels, and British made North West Trade Guns had shorter barrels, but....,

Trade Rifles, which were traded West of the Mississippi, and Eastern rifles were still quite long, some in fact more than 44"

Derringer made trade rifle, circa 1818, 2,000 made and overall length was 60"... contracted by US Government, (by officials living well East of the Mississippi)

The British military from the 1760's through the ACW only shortened their musket by 3" to 39"..., even when they later rifled their rifles the Enfield was a 39" rifled musket...., for the infantry

The US military used the Springfield was a 40" barrel in the ACW.... for the infantry

So I think that the answer was the sighting plane and not used on horseback, especially when reloading.

LD

 

[Johnny Tremain]

The only way to get more distance, is thru more velocity. The only way to get it with black powder is with a longer barrel.
When the move was made to cartridges, same thing.
The 45/70 begot the 45/90, 45/100, 45/110 , and Quigley's 45/120.

I got a 42 inch, because the 44 inch was the wrong twist.

 

[tenngun]

A down side is velocity down range for a ball. A 1100 fps .50 slows to about 800 a 2200fps .50 slows to 1100
Bambi won’t know the velocity difference as both are through and through shots

 

[brazosland]

Can you show us your documentation on why you think this premise is valid?

So some rifles made for those going West of the Mississippi, were shorter barrels, and British made North West Trade Guns had shorter barrels, but....,

Trade Rifles, which were traded West of the Mississippi, and Eastern rifles were still quite long, some in fact more than 44"

Derringer made trade rifle, circa 1818, 2,000 made and overall length was 60"... contracted by US Government, (by officials living well East of the Mississippi)

View attachment 247088

The British military from the 1760's through the ACW only shortened their musket by 3" to 39"..., even when they later rifled their rifles the Enfield was a 39" rifled musket...., for the infantry

The US military used the Springfield was a 40" barrel in the ACW.... for the infantry

So I think that the answer was the sighting plane and not used on horseback, especially when reloading.

LD

The very first thing that comes to mind is that government and military buyers are never at the leading edge of anything…being mired in the past and their own prejudices is completely well documented.

You sight an example of a single Govt contract in 1818. Perhaps the Indians those Derringers were intended for were not getting all of their fashion memos. And it’s also a fact that guns intended for trade were purpose built to appeal to desires of the natives (good or bad).

I could counter with the 1803 Harper’s Ferry as just one example of weapons with shorter barrels. Spurred in part at that early date by a forward thinking English gunsmith who was aware and influenced by the trends in England at that time.

The work of the brothers Hawken would soon be shorter barrels. There was and is in the historical record a trend to barrel lengths in the 30’s down from the low to mid 40’s (or longer) by the second decade of the century.

Is that really a fact that is in doubt?

Certainly being mounted in the west drove the desire for shorter rifles. But my question is why did the barrels of guns from the southern mountains start to grow longer? Sight plane seems the only logical answer.

 

[#blackpowderbill]

Longer barrels on military style rifles they're all fixed with a bayonet.
The long rifles with the bayonet replaced the pike soldiers.
Once the armies of the world figured out that they didn't need Pike soldiers anymore. They armed all their Frontline people with a musket and a bayonet. They didn't need a completely separate division.

Trade companies trade guns. They made them longer because standing the butt on the ground. tell the Indians you want this gun? I need this many hides, longer the gun the more hides.

Those long barrel rifles cap locks, I've always questioned why in a cash & material strapped society.
Why would you use a third more steel and a barrel than what was actually needed?
Try walking through the woods with a 60-in long rifle. Now imagine how thick the woods were 150 200 years ago.

The target rifle I can see having a longer thicker barrel on it. Shooting over a log those guns are going to weight in at 10 11 12 14 lb. Plus
These powder manufacturers and gun makers they already had all the calculations down.

The only thing I can figure since I've never seen it in actual writing.
People like the longer Barrel on a gun. I'd have to be longer right ,so it would work better.
More steel more money

 

[brazosland]

Longer barrels on military style rifles they're all fixed with a bayonet.
The long rifles with the bayonet replaced the pike soldiers.
Once the armies of the world figured out that they didn't need Pike soldiers anymore. They armed all their Frontline people with a musket and a bayonet. They didn't need a completely separate division.

Trade companies trade guns. They made them longer because standing the butt on the ground. tell the Indians you want this gun? I need this many hides, longer the gun the more hides.

Those long barrel rifles cap locks, I've always questioned why in a cash & material strapped society.
Why would you use a third more steel and a barrel and what was actually needed?
Try walking through the woods with a 60-in long rifle. Now imagine how thick the woods were 150 200 years ago.

The target rifle I can see having a longer thicker barrel on it. Shooting over a log those guns are going to weight in at 10 11 12 14 lb. Plus
These powder manufacturers and gun makers they already had all the calculations down.

The only thing I can figure since I've never seen it in actual writing.
People like the longer Barrel on a gun. I'd have to be longer right ,so it would work better.
More steel more money

All interesting points.

However, the old growth forests of the 18th and 19th century were much more open than what we understand as normal now. Mature forrest’s had less undergrowth and fire was the prime management mechanism, and a very good one.

 

[#blackpowderbill]

All interesting points.

However, the old growth forests of the 18th and 19th century were much more open than what we understand as normal now. Mature forrest’s had less undergrowth and fire was the prime management mechanism, and a very good one.

Anything along the coast & inland had pretty much been clear-cut by 1820.

Open woods doesn't justify a 40 plus inch barrel. Extended sight plane yes,burns powder better nah.
Lots of talk about how bad the powder was back in the old days. Those people were fighting international wars. I'm thinking their equipment was all that bad.

When I was a kid I remembered dozens of muzzleloaders stuffed and barrels in hardware stores.
Very few were extra long.

The muzzleloaders and old suppository arms that were at my grandparents homestead.
Pretty much filled every corner of the living room.
The only long ones were smoothies IE old military and a couple of game bird guns.
I have a 1840 Mills Upland Fowler 30" barrel.

IMPO
The reproduction guns that have been made for the last 75 years.
Are copies of guns that survived or were gift guns to people of means.

I've been to all kinds of museums ever since I was a kid. Looked at everything they had displayed. Books, articles, pictures

 

[ETipp]

The only way to get more distance, is thru more velocity. The only way to get it with black powder is with a longer barrel.
When the move was made to cartridges, same thing.
The 45/70 begot the 45/90, 45/100, 45/110 , and Quigley's 45/120.

I got a 42 inch, because the 44 inch was the wrong twist.

In terms of round ball, perhaps so. That's not entirely true for conical. Some of the shorter style ML are shooting fine accuracy out to 500 yards. Don't believe it? Watch some of Idaho Lewis's videos. He was shooting a 26" Renegade.

 

[brazosland]

Anything along the coast & inland had pretty much been clear-cut by 1820.

Open woods doesn't justify a 40 plus inch barrel. Extended sight plane yes,burns powder better nah.
Lots of talk about how bad the powder was back in the old days. Those people were fighting international wars. I'm thinking their equipment was all that bad.

When I was a kid I remembered dozens of muzzleloaders stuffed and barrels in hardware stores.
Very few were extra long.

The muzzleloaders and old suppository arms that were at my grandparents homestead.
Pretty much filled every corner of the living room.
The only long ones were smoothies IE old military and a couple of game bird guns.
I have a 1840 Mills Upland Fowler 30" barrel.

IMPO
The reproduction guns that have been made for the last 75 years.
Are copies of guns that survived or were gift guns to people of means.

I've been to all kinds of museums ever since I was a kid. Looked at everything they had displayed. Books, articles, pictures

I’m sorry, I thought this thread was about SMR’s…but yes you are correct, the coastal forrest areas of Kentucky and Tennessee and West Virginia had all been cleared by then…