I have an original Enfield dated 1862 on lock. I have fired the gun (58 cal Minnie) with 60 gr Goex 3f black powder. It shoots just fine and wonder if I can use Pyrodex P instead of the black powder. If so, how many grains of the Pyrodex P should I use. I plan to shoot targets at 50 yds?
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shooting original 1862 Enfield
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Rebel
Cannon
Pyrodex P is measured volume for vloume with 3f Goex. So 60 grs would be fine if you have been using 60 gr. of Goex 3f.
I personally would not recommend using Pyrodex P in an original Enfield.
I say this because of the pressure data given in the Lyman Black Powder Handbook information.
First of all, they don't even list using Pyrodex P in any .58 caliber gun with any projectile.
They do not list Pyrodex P with any .54 caliber slug loads either. They do however list if for use in the smaller caliber guns shooting patched roundballs.
The Pyrodex P usually gives higher pressures than Pyrodex Select, which gives higher pressures than Pyrodex RS.
Now, admittedly it's talking apples and oranges, but in a .45 caliber gun shooting a roundball with a 60 grain load of FFg powder = 9,800 psi. 60 grains of P =11,100 psi.
With a 200 grain slug in the .45 caliber gun, 60 grains of FFg =11,800 psi while 60 grains of P =17,200 psi.
My reason for mentioning the slug load is because you're shooting a heavy Minie' in your Enfield.
For me, the risk of damaging an original Enfield let alone yourself makes the use of Pyrodex P too great of risk.
I say this because of the pressure data given in the Lyman Black Powder Handbook information.
First of all, they don't even list using Pyrodex P in any .58 caliber gun with any projectile.
They do not list Pyrodex P with any .54 caliber slug loads either. They do however list if for use in the smaller caliber guns shooting patched roundballs.
The Pyrodex P usually gives higher pressures than Pyrodex Select, which gives higher pressures than Pyrodex RS.
Now, admittedly it's talking apples and oranges, but in a .45 caliber gun shooting a roundball with a 60 grain load of FFg powder = 9,800 psi. 60 grains of P =11,100 psi.
With a 200 grain slug in the .45 caliber gun, 60 grains of FFg =11,800 psi while 60 grains of P =17,200 psi.
My reason for mentioning the slug load is because you're shooting a heavy Minie' in your Enfield.
For me, the risk of damaging an original Enfield let alone yourself makes the use of Pyrodex P too great of risk.
Rebel
Cannon
Zonie, wouldn't the pressure from The Pyrodex P be about the same as the pressure he is getting using Goex 3f?
Rebel: Here again, I'm looking at the .45 cal data.
For FFFg with a roundball
50 grains =7,900 psi
60 grains =9,300 psi
70 grains =10,000 psi
80 grains =10,600 psi
For Pyrodex P
50 grains =9,200 psi
60 grains =11,100 psi
70 grains =13,800 psi
80 grains =16,500 psi
For FFFg with a 200 grain Buffalo Ball-et
50 grains =11,400 psi
60 grains =14,400 psi
70 grains =15,900 psi
80 grains =17,300 psi
For Pyrodex P with a 200 grain Buffalo Ball-et
50 grains = 13,300 psi
60 grains = 17,200 psi
70 grains = 19,700 psi
80 grains = 22,200 psi
Like I say, I wouldn't shoot Pyrodex P in it. I also wouldn't shoot FFFg in it if I could find the FFg or even the Pyrodex RS which would be more suited to this large bore gun.
For FFFg with a roundball
50 grains =7,900 psi
60 grains =9,300 psi
70 grains =10,000 psi
80 grains =10,600 psi
For Pyrodex P
50 grains =9,200 psi
60 grains =11,100 psi
70 grains =13,800 psi
80 grains =16,500 psi
For FFFg with a 200 grain Buffalo Ball-et
50 grains =11,400 psi
60 grains =14,400 psi
70 grains =15,900 psi
80 grains =17,300 psi
For Pyrodex P with a 200 grain Buffalo Ball-et
50 grains = 13,300 psi
60 grains = 17,200 psi
70 grains = 19,700 psi
80 grains = 22,200 psi
Like I say, I wouldn't shoot Pyrodex P in it. I also wouldn't shoot FFFg in it if I could find the FFg or even the Pyrodex RS which would be more suited to this large bore gun.
Rebel
Cannon
Thanks Zonie. I didn't realize there was that much difference in pressure between Pyrodex and 3f. I do know that the larger bores create less pressure than the small bore for a given charge.
Rebel: I agree. That's why I said it was apples and oranges but my point is, if Lyman didn't include either FFFg or Pyrodex P in their .58 caliber Minie' data, there might have been a good reason. :front:
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Dear Zonie - I have been looking at this post now most of the evening. I shoot three original black powder rifles and muskets, and have to support you very strongly on this one. However, the factor you don't mention is that in order to work well, Pyrodex has to be compressed, which is why it is very effective in a muzzle-loading handgun with a lever compressing it.
Experiments here in UK in the large muzzle-loading rifle shooting circles, when Pyrodex first appeared, have shown a very wide variation in pressure and velocity by the slightest variation in loading Pyrodex, and not only is it not recommended, but it is actually banned from use. The pressure/time curve of the burning charge, outside laboratory conditions, is simply not predictable enough for consistant performance. It is, by definition, NOT black powder. It is banned on military ranges where the public are permitted to shoot black powder weapons as well. It is also banned for use in all international competitions.
The other point is that the loading data is only for round ball, NOT for the far heavier Minie bullet, and 100gr of Pyrodex RS is not only the equivalent of 110gr of FFFg, but is also MUCH too fast burning for the ponderous 490-535gr Minie. In an older gun, something might have to give.
I would never risk a modern reproduction weapon with ANY of the substitute powders behind a Minie bullet, let alone a rare and valuable original.
But in the end, 'tis down to the user. 55-65gr of Go-Ex works for me in the .577/58 out to 600yards. And 80-90gr of the same out to 1200 yards in my Whitworth.
Pyrodex is something I save for my revolvers.
tac
Experiments here in UK in the large muzzle-loading rifle shooting circles, when Pyrodex first appeared, have shown a very wide variation in pressure and velocity by the slightest variation in loading Pyrodex, and not only is it not recommended, but it is actually banned from use. The pressure/time curve of the burning charge, outside laboratory conditions, is simply not predictable enough for consistant performance. It is, by definition, NOT black powder. It is banned on military ranges where the public are permitted to shoot black powder weapons as well. It is also banned for use in all international competitions.
The other point is that the loading data is only for round ball, NOT for the far heavier Minie bullet, and 100gr of Pyrodex RS is not only the equivalent of 110gr of FFFg, but is also MUCH too fast burning for the ponderous 490-535gr Minie. In an older gun, something might have to give.
I would never risk a modern reproduction weapon with ANY of the substitute powders behind a Minie bullet, let alone a rare and valuable original.
But in the end, 'tis down to the user. 55-65gr of Go-Ex works for me in the .577/58 out to 600yards. And 80-90gr of the same out to 1200 yards in my Whitworth.
Pyrodex is something I save for my revolvers.
tac
Dear tac: I thought I did mention a light weight slug, that being one of the few for which Pyrodex P data was given. As I am sure you noticed, the original question delt with Pyrodex P. My intention was to point out that a heavier projectile greatly effects the pressure when Pyrodex P is used.
Having seen the difficulty in obtaining any, let alone a pound or two of black powder in many of the large cities in this country, I tend to sympathize with people who must use Pyrodex in their muzzleloaders, or not shoot at all. In fact, I know of no gunshop in the Phoenix Arizona "Valley of the Sun" area that carries Black Powder. That covers an area of about 690 square miles! This explains why I shoot Pyrodex in my Caplock rifles. I save the real Swiss/Goex black powder for my Flintlocks.
The primary reason for the difficulty over here is there are not enough people shooting (demanding?) black powder to warrent the gunshops taking the extra measures needed to stock and sell it.
The gunshops can carry Pryodex or 777 without problems because it is rated as a combustable like smokeless powder, not an explosive. Our Government lists Black Powder as an explosive.
The insurance companies are not at all sympathetic with our shooters problems and will greatly increase the premiums of those stores which choose to carry an actual explosive.
As for the folks in Great Britain banning Pyrodex, from what I've read I've come to the conclusion that there isn't a great deal which isn't banned over there? I've even heard large pointy kitchen knives are being considered for the next round of banning?
Thanks for your comments.
Jim (Zonie)
Having seen the difficulty in obtaining any, let alone a pound or two of black powder in many of the large cities in this country, I tend to sympathize with people who must use Pyrodex in their muzzleloaders, or not shoot at all. In fact, I know of no gunshop in the Phoenix Arizona "Valley of the Sun" area that carries Black Powder. That covers an area of about 690 square miles! This explains why I shoot Pyrodex in my Caplock rifles. I save the real Swiss/Goex black powder for my Flintlocks.
The primary reason for the difficulty over here is there are not enough people shooting (demanding?) black powder to warrent the gunshops taking the extra measures needed to stock and sell it.
The gunshops can carry Pryodex or 777 without problems because it is rated as a combustable like smokeless powder, not an explosive. Our Government lists Black Powder as an explosive.
The insurance companies are not at all sympathetic with our shooters problems and will greatly increase the premiums of those stores which choose to carry an actual explosive.
As for the folks in Great Britain banning Pyrodex, from what I've read I've come to the conclusion that there isn't a great deal which isn't banned over there? I've even heard large pointy kitchen knives are being considered for the next round of banning?
Thanks for your comments.
Jim (Zonie)
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Dear Mr Zonie - I sympathise with you all, even from over here. We have to have a Class 1 explosives licence to purchase BP, and our home insurance folks don't care for it either. I live too near my neighbours to be insurable, so I use Pyrodex in my revolvers, and cadge BP off my other shooting pals [by arrangement, I have to say!].
Youn misunderstand the ban of Pyrodex [I bought another can of P yesterday, by the way]. The ban is on the use of Pyrodex on military ranges, and is tolerable if not understandable, as we are there on sufferance anyway, and the MoD can lay down any rules it likes. As for the prohibition in target shooting, that too is understandable, after all, it is NOT black powder, and all competitive BLACK POWDER shooting must take place with the proper stuff.
In general Pyrodex is not the great fix-all that many thought it would be. It is not suitable for the long rifle .451" we love so much, nor suitable for the .577 either for many reasons that you and I have both outlined. The shooting of round ball is unusual here in UK, unless in the 50yard MLAGB competition, something I have never participated in. The beautiful American long rifle, shot offhand, is a real rarity here, more's the pity.
As we are not permitted to have cartridge firing handguns in England Scotland or Wales, we can't take advantage of Pyrodex CTG, so we are left with what we have.
As for banning everything, you have been misinformed. I have sixteen rifles and three handguns, and enjoy shooting them all. In fact, I'm off out now, to shoot my Krico 650SS long-range counter-sniping rifle in .308, with its 8-32x56 Nighforce NXS on top. And when I've finished with that, later on this afternoon, and cleaned her up, I'll go over to our other range in the woods here in Northamptonshire, and let loose with my Colt Walker, a second gen model #1816, and kill some dandelions at 50 yards. Maybe.
Not all is lost over here, Sir, shooting has more and more adherents every week, and our small club, of 175 members and their families, has a waiting list of over 40, eager to join and paricipate in one of the fastest-growing pastimes in the UK.
The proposed pointy-thing ban was a ten-minute wonder headed up by a few doctors - here the murderers use axes, UZI's, MAC10's, and anything else, just like in YOUR country.
Best wishes
tac
Youn misunderstand the ban of Pyrodex [I bought another can of P yesterday, by the way]. The ban is on the use of Pyrodex on military ranges, and is tolerable if not understandable, as we are there on sufferance anyway, and the MoD can lay down any rules it likes. As for the prohibition in target shooting, that too is understandable, after all, it is NOT black powder, and all competitive BLACK POWDER shooting must take place with the proper stuff.
In general Pyrodex is not the great fix-all that many thought it would be. It is not suitable for the long rifle .451" we love so much, nor suitable for the .577 either for many reasons that you and I have both outlined. The shooting of round ball is unusual here in UK, unless in the 50yard MLAGB competition, something I have never participated in. The beautiful American long rifle, shot offhand, is a real rarity here, more's the pity.
As we are not permitted to have cartridge firing handguns in England Scotland or Wales, we can't take advantage of Pyrodex CTG, so we are left with what we have.
As for banning everything, you have been misinformed. I have sixteen rifles and three handguns, and enjoy shooting them all. In fact, I'm off out now, to shoot my Krico 650SS long-range counter-sniping rifle in .308, with its 8-32x56 Nighforce NXS on top. And when I've finished with that, later on this afternoon, and cleaned her up, I'll go over to our other range in the woods here in Northamptonshire, and let loose with my Colt Walker, a second gen model #1816, and kill some dandelions at 50 yards. Maybe.
Not all is lost over here, Sir, shooting has more and more adherents every week, and our small club, of 175 members and their families, has a waiting list of over 40, eager to join and paricipate in one of the fastest-growing pastimes in the UK.
The proposed pointy-thing ban was a ten-minute wonder headed up by a few doctors - here the murderers use axes, UZI's, MAC10's, and anything else, just like in YOUR country.
Best wishes
tac
tac: Thank you for the update.
Happy shooting to you, and yours. :front:
Happy shooting to you, and yours. :front:
ResearchPress
45 Cal.
I suppose it depends on what circles you move in re. patched ball, although it's not something I shoot a lot of, prefering long range. MLAGB events are not limited to 50m for round ball, and include 100m comps. I think they are also fired in the NRA's Trafalgar meeting. One shoot I recently attended in Derbyshire had patched round ball shooting at 200 yards. Besides that there's more at local club level.
How often do you get to shoot the Whitworth at 1200 yards? I only get to 1200 once a year (last weekend was this year's shoot) although usually get a couple of goes at 1100 yards and plenty at 1000 yards.
80-90gr Goex at 1200? I was using 105 grains and most I know at least 100 grains.
... and just to get back on track... with the Long Range Rifles Branch of the MLAGB we have an Enfield aggregate fired at 600 and 800 yards. Fifteen shots each distance.
David
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Yo Mr Minshall - don't go putting us hay-chewing rural shooters down, eh? We are not all in the MLAGB. Our little club of around 175 has a few MLAGB members for sure, but I have only ever seen one shooting his ball-gun [a TC Hawken semi-replica in .54cal] on our 25, 50 and 100 yard ranges in the last seven years I have been a member. As for what load to use, well, it's whatever pops your cork I guess, and what works for you. My cheap fake Whitworth, a Parker-Hale, serial #888, from around 1985, shoots comfortably with 89-90gr of BP - I'm not trying to blow the backstop off the face of the earth. But then I'm a very simple soul, me. Launching my severely overweight [595gr] paper-patched 595gr Polisar swaged bullet into the air at ANY distance and connecting at the other end is a real accomplishment from where I'm sitting.
Enjoy YOUR shooting, Mr Minshall, the same way I enjoy mine. In the end, it's all a big bang, and a cloud of white smoke that quickly blows away...
Best wishes from East Anglia, the 'Where?' in great Britain.
tac :grey:
Enjoy YOUR shooting, Mr Minshall, the same way I enjoy mine. In the end, it's all a big bang, and a cloud of white smoke that quickly blows away...
Best wishes from East Anglia, the 'Where?' in great Britain.
tac :grey:
robinghewitt
62 Cal.
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I can see you're going to fit right in here Sir Terry :crackup:
ResearchPress
45 Cal.
I wasn't aware I was putting anyone down... simply trying to explain to our American friends that there is more round ball shooting here in the UK than you appear to have experienced.
Re the load you say you have been using in your Whitworth at 1200 yards, I was just curious. A friend shooting at 1000 and 1100 yds last weekend did well with 85 grains of Swiss #3. When he went back to 1200yds performance significantly dropped off with hardly a hit on target. I usually shoot 95 grains TPPH out to 1000 yds and stepped this up to 105 for 1100 and 1200, based on the same load last year and 2nd place in the match. If someone is getting good results with reduced charges I am interested to know. I thought one of the points of these discussion boards was to ask questions and learn.
Thanks for the good wishes, I do enjoy my shooting.
David
Re the load you say you have been using in your Whitworth at 1200 yards, I was just curious. A friend shooting at 1000 and 1100 yds last weekend did well with 85 grains of Swiss #3. When he went back to 1200yds performance significantly dropped off with hardly a hit on target. I usually shoot 95 grains TPPH out to 1000 yds and stepped this up to 105 for 1100 and 1200, based on the same load last year and 2nd place in the match. If someone is getting good results with reduced charges I am interested to know. I thought one of the points of these discussion boards was to ask questions and learn.
Thanks for the good wishes, I do enjoy my shooting.
David
Tumblernotch
69 Cal.
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:crackup: I'll say he will! I told my P-H Whitworth #61 about what his #888 did and the poor old thing got "bullet envy"! It's already mad at me for goin' off and leavin' it on the rack to go off playin' with that .69 cal. French floozie...ah, but that's a different story. ::
Oh, and by the way, did you say Sir?
Oh, and by the way, did you say Sir?
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Ahem ......quote]...I suppose it depends on what circles you move in
ResearchPress
45 Cal.
Read in what you wish. As stated before no put-down was intended.
I have friends who shoot matchlock and flintlock muskets, flintlock rifles and percussion rifles, all with patched round ball. My wife also shoots flintlock rifle. This is on local club ranges for fun or competition, in county open shoots and with the MLAGB and NRA.
Quite how "serfs/yokels/general bumpkins" came into this other than through your imagination is beyond me. :relax:
It is by listening to comments, opinions and advice that I have learnt. Why should I not be expected to listen to you? Not owning a Whitworth or shooting such heavy bullets as you, does not make your experiences any the less interestng.
David
Tumblernotch
69 Cal.
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:nono: Now, come come, lads. What's all this then? We'll not be 'avin such dialogue between our English brethren. We've already 'ad enough o'this over 'ere. Shall I 'ave to send Squire Robin around to break this up? 'Ow about the two of you get together at the pub and 'ave a pint and get to know each other? Unless the problem is the fact that you do know each other. :hmm:
It seems to me we've somewhat strayed from the topic at 'and.ff: Let's be good lads and enjoy the discussion about that lovely rifle musket made in Middlesex near the banks of the River Lea.
:redthumb:
It seems to me we've somewhat strayed from the topic at 'and.
ff: Let's be good lads and enjoy the discussion about that lovely rifle musket made in Middlesex near the banks of the River Lea.:redthumb:
