Shootable antique?

[Trailblazer451]

Hi guys. New to black powder. I've been reading and researching a lot on the following firearm, and now have a number of questions.

I inherited an original 1854 Austrian Lorenz in .54 cal (13.9mm). When I first looked at the barrel to ensure that it was not loaded, the ramrod would go all the way down with the skinny/threaded end sent down first. However, the fat end would stop 3-4" short of the breech. I ran a dry patch and a brush down the barrel, and slowly opened up the pinch point to where the fat end of the ramrod (name of that part?) went all the way down easily with clearance. The rifling near the muzzle is fully present. The patch and "stuff that came out" showed both black and rust colored. More rust colored on the patch than black.

The firearm is just a nicely patina'd firearm. 1859 date on the lock plate, Has an "L" stamped/cut into the wood near the left side of the tang. It has a fixed rear sight and a cheekrest. It has little finish on the exterior steel, but I understand that is pretty much the original (non-)finish. It functions well. The lock is pretty clean, the hammer spring is strong, has full positive function at full and half cock. The trigger pull is reasonably good, the nipple is not deformed, and hole to the breech is clear. The stock is not cracked or damaged. The only real issue I can find without complete disassembly is the barrel as noted above. No bayonet. I see that Pedersoli is making repops of this firearm for shooters and reenactors.

Questions:
Is there a proper way to inspect the barrel and "chamber?" I'm concerned about trying to shoot it if I can't ensure that the necked down area is fully cleared.

What defines the firearm as shootable? I'd like to use it, but should it be relegated to blank firing only?

I understand that you don't want to use modern solvents and lubes, so should I just use the Dawn and Ballistol/Bore Butter method and call it good? What jags/tools should I use - patch only? And what is the definition of "good?"

If I were to sell it, is an original version of this firearm - in the described condition - worth anywhere close to the repops?

Is the threaded end of the ramrod for some kind of jags? Someone told me that it might thread into the bottom of the ramrod channel for retention, but it does not thread in.


I don't have any pics right now. I could take and post a couple if there is interest, but the barrel wouldn't show, of course.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[andy52]

Take a high intensity LED flashlight and look down the barrel just make sure there's no cap on the gun. I'd have to see the ram rod but generally threaded is for a jag.
The very end of the barrel is the breech and if you are using the proper size jag you should be able to drop the rod down the bore and hear a metal clank when it bottoms out.

 

[Trailblazer451]

Take a high intensity LED flashlight and look down the barrel just make sure there's no cap on the gun. I'd have to see the ram rod but generally threaded is for a jag.
The very end of the barrel is the breech and if you are using the proper size jag you should be able to drop the rod down the bore and hear a metal clank when it bottoms out.

Well, I've tried the flashlight, but you can't see very far. Definitely not to the point of concern.

And the ramrod did go all the way to the end of the breech with the threaded end, but not with the fat end until I opened it up. I haven't gotten a cap anywhere close to the firearm yet, though I might do that soon just to ensure the pathway is clear (pop a cap!). I have musket caps.


Thanks, Dave

 

[poker]

Dave, run a patch up against the obstruction just to see what youre dealing with. If its corrosion it would likely come back brown, if fouling it should be black.

 

[Eric Krewson]

Get an $8 bore scope off eBay, you can see what is really going on in your bore.

Here is an example picture of the breech of a TC kit I put together a couple of years ago.

 

[Sam squanch]

You may have a “stem” that is in the breech plug. It’s purpose was to hammer a round ball on it to expand it. Not sure on this model.

 

[Trailblazer451]

Dave, run a patch up against the obstruction just to see what youre dealing with. If its corrosion it would likely come back brown, if fouling it should be black.

The patch comes back mostly rust colored. Corrosion, I assume.

 

[andy52]

Get an $8 bore scope off eBay, you can see what is really going on in your bore.

Here is an example picture of the breech of a TC kit I put together a couple of years ago.
View attachment 63316

I'd like to have one of those but I don't own a smart phone.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The endoscope will also work with your computer. It will be an alternate for your (laptop) computer's internal camera.

 

[poker]

I guess a scraper and or brush would be the next step. One time I had one that had fouling so hard I had to fashion a groove scraper to get it out of the grooves. It took a while but finally came out really nice. I used it with some hoppes bore cleaner if I remember right.

 

[Trailblazer451]

I guess a scraper and or brush would be the next step. One time I had one that had fouling so hard I had to fashion a groove scraper to get it out of the grooves. It took a while but finally came out really nice. I used it with some hoppes bore cleaner if I remember right.

Brush with some kind of lubrication? Dawn and water, or something else? And, what kind of scraper? Do you have a link to an example?

 

[poker]

Any lube for now, it can be cleaned afterwards. If its corrosion, a solvent based lube is probably best. If its lead or fouling, depending how set it is, water or solvent may be better. I dont have any links for what I made to scrape with, but I took a brass rod just a few thou less than the bore diameter and screwed a spur onto the front of it. Actually I used a couple spurs, first was a bit rounded corners and went thru the grooves easier, then I put one with squared corners on it and shoved that thru. One groove at a time, It takes a while.
Before you go to all the trouble, make sure you cant get it with standard cleaning brushes. Also if its lead which I would suspect, theres some solvent that is supposed to disolve it. This was years back that I did this, and I hadnt heard of that yet. Good Luck

 

[Feltwad]

Tralblazer 451
Not a big job just straight forward forget about working from the muzzle that can cause damage too the rifling . If you a certain it is unloaded and the gun is fitted with a breech plug and a hooked breech .Secure the barrel in a lead covered jaws of a vice and apply some heat to the join of the plug to the barrel not to excessive on some the old oil will emerge from the join of the plug and the barrel first remove the nipple which will be the first to become easy to move then take a special key that fits the hooked breech and a smart tap with the hammer will loose the plug [SEE IMAGE]. Once removed you will see the rust etc situated just forward of barrel threads with then can be removed with little effort . .This is my method which I have used for decades to remove hundreds of plugs in all calibres both small and big
Feltwad

 

[rich pierce]

Unbreeching is needed.

 

[Trailblazer451]

Tralblazer 451
Not a big job just straight forward forget about working from the muzzle that can cause damage too the rifling . If you a certain it is unloaded and the gun is fitted with a breech plug and a hooked breech .Secure the barrel in a lead covered jaws of a vice and apply some heat to the join of the plug to the barrel not to excessive on some the old oil will emerge from the join of the plug and the barrel first remove the nipple which will be the first to become easy to move then take a special key that fits the hooked breech and a smart tap with the hammer will loose the plug [SEE IMAGE]. Once removed you will see the rust etc situated just forward of barrel threads with then can be removed with little effort . .This is my method which I have used for decades to remove hundreds of plugs in all calibres both small and big
Feltwad

It does not appear to be a hooked breech.

A few pics:

 

[Trailblazer451]

Dave, run a patch up against the obstruction just to see what youre dealing with. If its corrosion it would likely come back brown, if fouling it should be black.

It's not actually an obstruction, it's probably a fowling ring with some corrosion due to long term storage. I'm just not really sure how to clean it up, or whether it is possible to do so. The other issue is: can it be shot after cleaning if some of it remains.

 

[Feltwad]

Yes that breech plug is different to what I mentioned ,I have removed this type of breech plug using heat but with the shape of the plug to the tang great care must be taken not too twist out the lineament of the tang
Feltwad

 

[poker]

Those fouling rings are what I was suggesting you have. Look up what chemical you could pour down your barrel to loosen it up. Acid would for sure, but yould need to be careful and not leave it in too long. And neutralize it afterwards. Othrwise there is commercial product available for taking lead off I just dont know what its called. Other option Im aware of is to scrape it out as I detailed. There are others such as taking breech plug out but that doesnt change things much as far as cleaning. Or heat the outside of your barrel enough to melt it. Id try the chemical solution.

 

[Rudyard]

Vinigar eats rust quite well as does hot water , Your as well turning out the plug it might go fairy easy if it going to go at all a big shifting spanner should work just don't mar the plug cushion it with thin brass, gentle heat generally helps , kerosene or oil of winter green can work. lots of luck.
Rudyard

 

[jaegerstutzen]

I agree with Rich, Pulling the breech plug will get you the best view possible. Also much easier to clean. You will need a vise. breech plug wrench, and a method to apply heat. If you don't have those items and do not want to invest in them you might want to send the bbl off to some one like Bobby Hoyt who will do all the work for you. I shoot an Austrian m1854 Jaeger rifle, also made in 1859. Bobby relined it and am still working on a load. the 1854 Lorenz series never used the pillar breech stem. but a Willkinson bullet. My bore, if I remember correctly, miked .547. Rapine made a minie in this size and you can get cast minies from Webers weapons. I am using minies in mine. They may shoot a round ball but was not designed for them. You rear site was designed to be to be center of mass @ 247 schritt, if I remember correctly, which I often don't. You will be way high at a closer range. I had to put a way higher front site on mine to hit my NSSA competition targets at 50 and 100 yds. You will find a lot of info on their site. By the way, what is the condition of your rifling? Some were rifled up to 57-58 cal. during during the war for Southern independence. There is much more to say but I am typed out! I have a very few lock parts and some cleaning jags to screw on the skinny (threaded) end of your rammer. You will need a cone wrench to remove the cone. I have a few orig. US ones but no Austrian. Also US mainspring vises. Shamless plug. Keep us abreast. Jaeger