Self defence carry?

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by francispowers, Jan 21, 2018.

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  1. Jan 21, 2018 #1

    francispowers

    francispowers

    francispowers

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    So first of all as a new forum member I'd like to say howdy to every user out here! I just have one question I was wondering about for a very long time.

    Im from Europe and in most EU countries obtaining a gun for self defence is pretty much near impossible (~30 licenses issued per year) and a sports licence takes over a year to acquire. :surrender: Even worse often goes for hunting, taking around 2 or more years and costs a lot of money (cant purchase a handgun anyway).
    Anyway, in the meantime, most of the muzzleloaders (all pre 1885 constructions) are available for everyone over 18YO with an ID. This caused thousands of muzzleloader fans to appear all across the EU. In some of the countries it's legal to carry a loaded blackpowder gun, so many people do it for self defence as it's their only available option. Not many people talk about it online though, as (seriously) everyone is afraid that the government will take this law away from everyone aswell, if any illegal incident with muzzleloader happens. They often prefer to keep carrying a muzzleloader a big secret.

    That's why I would ask the US community (home of the best 19th century percussion constructions). Do you sometimes carry a muzzleloader (Remington NA 1858 for instance) with you? What do you think about the whole idea of carrying such gun for self defence nowadays?
    Heard a lot of stories about how dangerous it is, especially because black powder is hygroscopic and might cause misfire. Im interested in muzzleloaders for over 15 years and personally, misfire happened to me maybe a few times over this entire time, but it's always nice to hear an opinion from experts.


    Regards :hatsoff:
     
  2. Jan 21, 2018 #2

    Rifleman1776

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    Welcome and thanks for a good question. Although it might be in the wrong forum. If the administrator moves it, do not be offended.
    As to your question. Bp/ml guns were used for centuries for self defense. They would be just as effective today as 'back then'. However, there aren't many that are readily concealable. Small derringers can be concealed but are only one shot guns. My immediate thought went to one of the more compact cap&ball revolvers. Tiny and under powered by today's standards but if poked in someones face it is unlikely they will want to risk being shot with it for that reason. I have a friend who carries one of the .31 cal. (American) Civil War era revolvers. It is his personal defense gun. When it comes to concealed carry personal defense firearms, my philosophy is availability and presence is more important than size. I know that will draw debate from the 'big boomers' advocates. Hope they chime in here. And, do let us know what you decide. Good luck.
     
  3. Jan 21, 2018 #3

    tenngun

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    I would not put on line the number of guns I own or what I carry. However I would say that the things that made a ml revolver a fine self defense gun 150years ago are still in effect. A .44 is not going to come at in terms of fire power with even a peacemaker let alone a modern pistol. Still the only reason one ever has to fire in self defense is going too get a threat close and even a .36 ball is a stopper at close range. We often think about chest shots, but best info now points to pelvic shots as the best man stopper. At five to seven meters , the only range you can reasonably say is self defense, threats are stoped with center torso all from a ml revolver.
    Even in modern guns I think the low power .22 mag is a better self defense gun then the hand cannons that some folk want to carry.
    For home defense I don’t think any thing beats a shot gun loaded with B.B. or smallest buck. And pedi makes a nice double.
     
  4. Jan 21, 2018 #4

    francispowers

    francispowers

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    Thanks a lot for replies.

    Yeah, the big problem is concealability. No open carry here obviously and if gun is visible in any way you can get accused of threatening + charged with public offence and get the gun confiscated.

    As I actually only own some common constructions like the Remington .44 mentioned above with 8 inch barrel, its very hard to carry it concealed and feel comfortable. I was thinking about Remington Pocket .31, but that on the other hand I consider a bit too small and Im not sure if I would trust my life with it.
     
  5. Jan 21, 2018 #5

    AZbpBurner

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    There are too many more effective and more concealable modern firearms available in the US to consider the need to carry a blackpowder relic.

    While prohibited persons (felons) are not allowed to own and carrying modern firearms, unless their rights have been restored, they may carry blackpowder arms - this was intended primarily for hunting and sporting purposes.

    As a black powder firearm is not considered a firearm in itself' using one to commit murder or crime makes it a firearm, which would have negative impact on a prohibited person - they could be prosecuted for unlawful firearm use.

    So, in your country, how does the court regard use of a black powder firearm in the commission of a crime or for the aftermath of self defense?

    I doubt a judicial system that is blind to the legitimate possession and use of a modern firearm would be lenient in the [justified] use of deadly force with a curio and relic or a replica blackpowder firearm.
     
  6. Jan 21, 2018 #6

    tenngun

    tenngun

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    Killing a bad guy would not bother me in any way. To me I would place it on the same moral ground as a cockroach. But self defense means removing the threat. All one needs to do is get out of range of the threat. A relitivly minor wound can be all one needs to inflict.
     
  7. Jan 21, 2018 #7

    tenngun

    tenngun

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    By the by it’s black powder residue that sucks up water out of the air. Kept dry a loaded ml is deadly centuries after it was loaded. A ml in your bedside or under a rain coat is sure fire as the day you load it.
     
  8. Jan 21, 2018 #8

    francispowers

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    That's the thing I consider absolutely retarded about Europe.

    Law considering firearms here, especially in my country is a one, big mess that doesn't make any sense at all.

    First of all,
    muzzlloader guns and replicas of muzzleloaders that existed before year 1885 are considered a firearm that does not require an licence to obtain it, sell it or carry it. You're not asked why do you carry it, its simply not prohibited.

    You can use any item/tool to protect yourself if your life is in "direct threat", so for instance you're getting mugged and the attacker is threatening you with a knife. Actually, the law specifficaly states that you are even allowed to use illegal firearm, you will only get charged with illegal possession of firearm.

    In reality it really varies. There are situations where someone shot agressive guy beating him up and nothing happened to him, and there were situations where a legal owner of a gun shot mugger carrying a knife and he was nearly put to jail for the next 3 years and had to pay the mugger for convalescence.

    That's the reality, but Im not going to give up my own safety because I "might" get charged of somenthing. That's why Im looking for a comfortable, easy to conceal and effective muzzleloader construction for self defence.
     
  9. Jan 21, 2018 #9

    Coot

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    Fortunately, in the USA, we have many better choices than a BP gun for self defense. If I wanted to carry (perhaps not a good choice in some countries and some US cities - given their anti-gun laws) and could only chose a production BP gun, I would look at a Colt pocket police. Reasonably small (although "pocket" likely refers to overcoat pockets) and @ .36 caliber, better power than a .31.
     
  10. Jan 21, 2018 #10

    RedFeather

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    Small caliber guns may have been an effective deterrent in their era due chiefly to a lack of emergency response and antibiotics, but not nearly so much today. Why small caliber modern guns are no longer recommended for self defense. And just because a gun is not regulated doesn't exempt it from being a concealed weapon. Where I live, a Colt pocket revolver would certainly qualify. They don't care if the weapon was made in 1849 or yesterday. I would seriously consider talking it over with someone who is well acquainted with the laws in your country. The old "Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six" has a nice ring and all, but I can tell you that we have a growing industry here of law groups who exclusively offer insurance for what comes after. Something else to think about.

    I just want to add my two cents on the use of BP for self defense carry. We had an incident recently in the state of Maryland where a BP revolver was used in a high profile crime. Thankfully, nothing came of it but it only takes the right one to lump these guns in with all the rest, especially these days.
     
  11. Jan 21, 2018 #11

    TFoley

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    The gentleman OP is plainly from a mainland Europe nation, probably, from the odd comment, Germany.

    However, he also mentions 'no handguns' so that makes it sound like it might be from UK. But no, he goes on to note that it takes two years to get a hunting license...here in UK, stalking which is what hunting is called hereabouts, takes the same time as any other firearms certificate to acquire.

    He is also wrong about self-defence - part of the UK, Northern Ireland, has well over 3000 Government-issued CCW handguns. The UK is part of Europe.

    OP, why not tell us where it is that you live? What harm can it do to you - you are anonymous here.

    tac, currently in UK
     
  12. Jan 21, 2018 #12

    Zonie

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    If you choose to carry a pistol for self defense, I think your comments about the Remington Pocket revolver is right on target.

    It and the Colt 1848-1849 .31 caliber Pocket Revolver would be suitable.

    Underpowered? Yes. Possible misfires? Yes but for self defense, these aren't the only things to consider.

    Take for instance my father.
    He was one of the few common citizens in the city I live in who could legally carry a concealed firearm.
    He carried a semi-automatic Colt Woodsman .22 pistol.

    On more than one occasion he needed to pull that little pistol for self defense.

    In each case, the would be thug backed down and left the scene with no shots fired.

    I think his attitude when he pulled the gun may have had something to do with it.
    His manners left no doubt in the thugs mind that my dad would gladly shoot him.

    In one instance he told the guy, "Take one more step towards me and I'll blow both of your knee-caps off."

    It's a good thing the thug backed off.
    My dad was a crack shot with that pistol. :rotf:
     
  13. Jan 21, 2018 #13

    Loyalist Dave

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    In the States it's not a good idea EXCEPT when one is in an area where, like you mention, there is no other self defense option when it comes to a firearm.

    Concerning Concealment..., Google "avenging angle revolver" and you will see many examples of cap-n-ball revolvers with very cut down barrels historically for exactly the same reasons that you mentioned. I have one I fashioned for side-match participation at Cowboy Action Shooting events. When I was done, I found mine was very accurate out to 15 feet even without a front sight post.

    To fashion it, I took an inexpensive "Confederate Navy Brass Framed .44" and with a hack saw, lopped off the barrel leaving about 2". Using a hand file and a square, I evened up the muzzle, and then I used a drill bit with a round stone to bevel a crown on the interior of the barrel at the muzzle. Voila, one DIY Avenging Angel.

    I bought three of these revolvers, two to use during a normal match, and the third to be converted, so that left me with a full size revolver to load up the cylinder, then I could switch it to the Avenging Angle when it came time, since shortening the barrel also necessitates the removal of the loading arm.

    IF I was going to use one for self defense, I'd probably go with a steel model, and I'd use 20 grains of 3Fg, a felt wad, the ball, and perhaps another wad on top or a beeswax cap. I'd also practice a lot to know all of the foibles of my chosen firearm.

    THAT has changed. While it used to be true, the Federal Government now prohibits felons and other persons who are prohibited from firearm possession from also possession of ammunition and components. So in the past the guy who was convicted of felony auto theft at 18 could take up black powder hunting later in life, or use say an 1858 Remington for home defense, because of the new wording of the law..., the powder and the ball mean possession of a loaded BP "antique" firearm or even just a box of round ball or a can of powder, is the same for such a person as holding a Smith & Wesson Model 10. :shocked2: This was in response to apprehension of prohibited felons who were able to ditch their illegal handgun, but loose ammunition was found on their person or during a search warrant of their dwelling. Prior to the law change, they were not in violation, BUT when they reworded the law, they didn't limit the wording to "fixed ammunition" and thus defaulted into including even black powder components. OH they can own the BP guns..., they simply can never be caught shooting them.

    LD
     
  14. Jan 21, 2018 #14

    SacramentoJohnson

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    Greetings!
    I don't know anybody who carries concealed a percussion BP revolver here.
    As for doing it, Pietta makes some 1860s Colt Armys, 1851 Colt Navys and 1858 Remmies, all with short 5 1/2 barrels, and in 44 caliber. You might want to look into those. If you don't care about reloading quickly, you could remove the loading ram and shorten the barrels even further.
     
  15. Jan 21, 2018 #15

    azmntman

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    I read about some guy sawing off the barrel of his brass .44 to 2" somewhere? :blah:
     
  16. Jan 21, 2018 #16

    azmntman

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    What type of stopping power would a .36 BP revolver have? A .44 (say ROA).

    When pop was a cop, back in the mid-late 70's, an acquaintance of his carried a .38 revolver, in a domestic dispute call a guy shot at him, he shot the guy in the heart with the .38 and the guy was still able, after a heart shot, to use his .45 1911 to kill the cop? It was at that point my pop upgraded to .357 mag (he wasn't allowed to carry a 1911 for some reason?)
     
  17. Jan 21, 2018 #17

    dledinger

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    I would definitely go with a chopped down 44. You don't need a loading lever for this application.

    I use an 1858 for snake control....no issues leaving it loaded all the time, always goes "bang".
     
  18. Jan 21, 2018 #18

    Black Hand

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    In Montana, unless you are a felon or psychiatric patient, you can purchase a modern handgun. It is also legal to carry a firearm/pistol as long as it is visible nearly anywhere (except Federal/Government buildings, Banks or drinking establishments). Frankly, if carrying, a modern pistol is a far better option for us. Other states have similar regulations, while even other states prohibit nearly everything in the mistaken idea it will minimize gun violence.

    The grand reality is that criminals will have the best firepower regardless of what the laws say in any country. Carrying a blackpowder firearm for "protection" is much like bringing a plastic picnic knife to a gunfight with Semi-automatic and Automatic Centerfire pistols & rifles...
     
  19. Jan 21, 2018 #19

    francispowers

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    Im talking about Poland here, the most strange laws about modern firearms, nearly treating every armed Citizen like a possible murderer but giving you much, Id even say a lot freedom when it comes to the BP guns I've mentioned, as no license for blackpowder or anything related is required aswell. You need a permit for blackpowder itself in UK, dont you? Getting a modern firearm is a true challenge though.


    Never heard of any common criminal/mugger with a firearm in Poland actually. Almost every one of them though carries a knife (its even legal to carry a machette or a sword if anyone was wondering) as its easy to get and protecting yourself with a knife is far more dangerous than actually getting "casually" mugged. Not many people carry guns for obvious reasons so in theese specific consitions people are usually robbed by some random idiots with knives that dont expect anyone willing to protect himself.


    Im not sure, maybe I'll look for 5 1/2 inch Remingtons...


    Sorry for any typos, replying from my phone.
     
  20. Jan 21, 2018 #20

    freekforge

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    I carried a cut down 1858 for a while. My state has a clear exemption on them so i carried it until i was able to get my license to carry a handgun and went to a more modern and practical carry piece. Its kind of funny looking back, started with a BP revolver only being able to carry in my state to being covered by leosa. Any way back on topic I never had to use the '58 but i would have no problems having to. I took my time cleaning and loading it and only carried it 2 weeks at a time before shooting, cleaning and reloading it. Im actually glad i started with a gun that required that much attention it taught me to pay attention to details when it comes to protecting your life.
     

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