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Sealing leather dye

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patriot59

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Okay, just finished a cartridge box, decided to dye this one black, used Fiebings leather dye.

Have rubbed box with cloth to remove excess dye, applied neatsfoot oil to protect.

Problem: dye is still bleeding off, anyone know of a way to seal dye, wife made new shirts for me and I really do not want to stain them.
 
It sounds like you didn't let the dye dry before adding the oil. You could try coating the box with black shoe polish and buffing it well. That should seal in the dye.
 
Put the box in the sun for two days before applying oil.

Shoe polish came to mind, do not know if it will rub off on clothing, may have to experiment.

Thanks :thumbsup:
 
Dunno if this has come up here, but many discourage the use of neatsfoot, mink oil, and such on items like holsters and cartridge boxes.
It breaks down the leather.
Good for ballgloves and such.
Many of those items we neatsfooted in the 60's and 70's like German helmet liners suffered badly for it.
Peccard's is recommended as is somethin called "hide food" or somesuch.
 
Always had the same problem with Fiebig's black. Started cutting it some with dark brown, and that stopped some of the bleeding. Still looks black enough. Gotta buff the heck out of it and seal it with a wax-based polish. If you want the leather to remain stiff, the go real easy on the neetsfoot before waxing.

100 percent Neetsfoot oil will NOT hurt leather. It is the stuff with silicon in it that hurts leather, mainly by rotting the strings. Neetsfoot has been used to treat leather since leather was invented. Just don't dump it on...a little goes a long way.
 
Stuff called Neat-Lac seals it good. It is a mix of waxes and oils in a lacquer finish. Tandy sells it. No more bleeding through with that stuff. It is made specifically for sealing and preserving dyed leather articles. Great stuff.
 
Here's some tips - I do this for a living and having any dye rub off is a no no (although I DO NOT guarantee that it won't since I don't know how it will be used or cared for).
When using commercial aniline dyes (which date to the 1850's and can be documented as being used that early for not only leather but for dying porky quills), I suggest the following (I'll suggest some fix-its later):
1) Starting with und-dyed leather (veg tan although the same method can be used on "chrome tan", which BTW dates to the 1860's)first deglaze the surface - this removes/evens the glaze of surface waxes/oils that can often be spotty and thus ruin a good job before you're started. I use plain old 70% rubbing alcohol, but on tough spots one can use acetone.
While still damp from deglazing (the water in water in the alcohol opens the pores, helping with penetration) I apply the dye - this can be done by dipping the entire thing in the dye or applying liberally with a cloth or piece of hair on sheepskin, When I say liberally I mean just that slop it on so that it puddles on the surface - when doing a piece withe inlays you can pre-dye before construction or use a brush to apply. Applying liberally eliminates streask and light spots. Once the whole piece is dyed wipe off any excess.
PS - some folks will suggest pre-oiling which can help even the dye - this works fine if you plan on using a heavy polymer sealer, but it is a lousy way when using an oil finish, because the oil will "lift" the dye back to the surface and promotes rub off.
2) Let dry thoroughly.
3) After drying take a CLEAN, dry rag and vigorously rub down the whole thing to remove the surface powder (as Tim noted - commercial leather dyes are basically powdered dye in a carrier such as alcohol, acetone, etc.). Follow this by wiping down with a CLEAN rag soaked in alcohol, and then a good scrubbing with saddle soap (I like Fiebings PH balanced liquid saddle soap, but the good ole yellow stuff works fine too - just more work).
4) While still damp apply a good oil/conditioner - be careful TOO much oil is just as bad as too little. veg/bark tan leather should have an oil content of around 18-21%, more than that and the leather cells can be damaged.
5) Leave alone at this point or add a final finish: period finishes include beeswax, beeswax/tallow, and even linseed oil based varnish ( the predecessor to patent leather). "Modern" natural finishes can also be applied: gum tragacanth (the Amish like this one as a harness top coat), Bag Kote, Tan Kote, and Neat Lac - all are based on natural products such as waxes and oils.

FIX-ITS: commercial black leather dye is always tough to get to quit bleeding, but here are some after the fact fix-it tips which may help:
1) Wipe down good on both sides with acetone (although acetone is a natural ketone which occurs in one's liver - wear gloves and a good mask when using - it absorbs easily into the skin and can cause liver damage, this can be a serious health hazard, but when handled properly the danger is minimal). This will dry out the leather some but generally not too much (no more than any dye). Do this two or three times - you will probably still get some rub off even after the third time, but it should be much less than the first time.
2) When dry, scrub well with saddle soap.
3) Let dry thoroughly.
4) Apply a good conditioner/oil - several LIGHT coats are better than one heavy saturation.
5) Apply a good top coat to both the flesh and top grain such as:
Fiebings Bag Kote ( a satin finish when applied in several light coats)
Tan Kote ( a heavier more gloss finish)
Neat Lac ( a heavy gloss finish)
The gloss finish can be cut some by rubbing lightly with 4/0 steel wool and then applying a LIGHT coat of oil/conditioner. Leave for a couple of hours and than apply a second coat. Dry again for several hours and then rub down brsikly with a CLEAN dry cloth.
6) At worst use one of the acrylic top coats such as Fiebings Resolene - I'd use this on the flesh side and edges no matter what....

Hopefully this will help.....
here's some more old time "dyes" - the vinegarron is a guaranteed no rub off :
English ball blacking for harness is composed of I ounce of lard, I ounce of beeswax, 8 ounces of ivory black, 8 ounces of sugar, 4 ounces of linseed oil, and 2 or 3 ounces of water.
Another kind is made of 2 ounces of hog's lard, 8 ounces of best neat's-foot oil, 2 ounces of beeswax, 8 ounces of ivory black, and 8 ounces of water. Heat the whole to a boil, remove from the fire, stir until sufficiently cool, and form into balls about two inches in diameter.
A third description is made of 2 ounces each of ivory black, copperas (hydrated ferrous sulfate), and neat's-foot oil, 4 ounces of brown sugar, 4 ounces of soft water, and I ounce of gum tragacanth ; boil until the water has evaporated, stir until cold, then roll into balls or mould into cakes.

VINEGAR BLACK (aka Vinegaroon)
For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.
Another method is to cover iron scraps with sour beer, and allow them to stand for a month or more ; then strain off the beer and bottle as before.
A third method is to boil sulphate of iron in vinegar; mix some brewers'yeast with beer and allow it to stand for twenty four hours, then skim off the yeast and add the vinegar.
With the vinegaroon (a common later name for the vinegar/iron "stain" - which is in fact a chemical reagent and not technically a dye) I neutralize after staining using either a mix of water and baking soda or TSP (trisodium phospate) - I've found this helps to set the stain as well as darken it and it almost elimianates the odor. I then hang in the air for a day before applying a good oil/conditioner. I prefer a light weight oil such as Lexol Condiditoner (a natural neats foot oil based conditioner), or their non-greasy Neats Foot. For a heavier more water resistant finish I use Montana Pitch Blend which is a blend of mink grease, beeswax, and pine pitch - it is much like my old home made tallow and beeswax mix which is well documented to the 18th/19th century.


Another period "black" dye is logwood, which can be diluted to give a medium to dark brown up to black. It is also documented for the 18th/19th century.
LOGWOOD BLACK
This black is unequaled for finishing. It is made by dissolving 1 pound of extract of log wood, 1/2 ounce of bichromate of potash, and 1 ounce of copperas in 1 gallon of water. Another formula, differing from the first in the quantities, is to dissolve 1 pound of extract of logwood, 2 ounces of Copperas, and 1 1/2 ounces of bichromate of potash in 1 1/2 gallons of water.

Boil a quantity of logwood bark in double its bulk of rain water for two or three hours, then straining off and adding 1/4 of a pound of potash to 2 gallons of the liquor. This makes a good grain as well as edge black.

Boil 1 pound of ground logwood, 1 pound of nut galls, and 1 ounce of verdigris in 1 gallon of water for two hours, then remove from the fire and allow it to stand until it is cold ; strain off the liquor, and it will be ready for use. If to 1 pint of this mixture be added 1/4 pound of white wax, 1/2 pound of brown sugar, and 1/2 pound of bone black rubbed smooth in turpentine, and the whole heated until thoroughly amalgamated, an excellent wax for finishing edges. will be produced.

Dunno if this has come up here, but many discourage the use of neatsfoot, mink oil, and such on items like holsters and cartridge boxes.
It breaks down the leather.
Good for ballgloves and such.
Many of those items we neatsfooted in the 60's and 70's like German helmet liners suffered badly for it.
The damage was done by using either Neatsfoot compound or over doing it (see above regarding over doing it).
Animal based oils such as neatsfoot, fish oil etc. are in fact used by tanneries during the tanning/currying stage of making leather. Secondly at least three modern scientific tests have been run by labs proving that when applied properly animal oils DO NOT injure leather - it's one of those "old wives" tales that just will not die...and yes I know folks will tell me otherwise, but as noted I work leather for a living, both new and repairs (even on 200 year old leather), and have done so for over 40 years so I do have experience beyond most.
As always others mileage will vary......
 
Very interesting info, Gray Wolf. Discussing English ball blacking, you mention ivory black as an ingredient. What is that? Carbonized (burned) ivory? If so, have you tried substitutes?
 
Gray Wolf, thank you for that post! While my experience working with leather is now where near the level of yours, I have been working in that medium for well over 20 years and have found everything you said to be true, especially when it comes to the use of neatsfoot oil, an absolutely invaluable product. :thumbsup: I was fortunate to have had an experienced Mennonite harness/saddle maker to advise and instruct me and he would agree with all you have said.
 
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