Scottish Percussion Deer Rifle

[44Bro]

OK, now I'm stumped. I didn't see the empty hole the first time around.

 

[Patrick Thomas]

Dandy rifle! The Damascus barrel is magnificent. Shame that you can’t shoot it.

 

[TFoley]

The MAIN reason why muzzleloaders are not generally allowed for shooting deer in the UK lies in the fact that very few muzzle-loading rifles, if any, can meet the muzzle energy AND velocity requirements for shooting deer in Scotland.

SCOTLAND

Roe Deer:
The bullet must weigh at least 50 grains and have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second. A minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds may be used.

All deer of any species:
The bullet must weigh at least 100 grains and have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second and a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds.

PLEASE NOTE that all these figures are the minimum legal requirement.

For all deer stalking the bullet must be of a type designed to expand/deform on impact. For example soft nose or ballistic tip.

Now all KNOW just how effective a muzzleloader can be in the USA, where we mostly agree that deer and other game can be taken at up to 150 yards. A second or follow-up shot is also very difficult to accomplish with a muzzleloader, especially as the wounded animal takes off for another part of the highlands at 40 mph.

Well, Gentlemen, please accept from me that you will only EVER get to within 150 yards of a deer in Scotland is somebody has already shot it stone dead. There is NO cover on the hill, apart from a sneaky fold in the ground.

That ultra-long barrel on the OP's rifle is there to take advantage of every grain of powder burn obtainable to drive the bullet.

 

[TFoley]

Dandy rifle! The Damascus barrel is magnificent. Shame that you can’t shoot it.

But he CAN shoot it [having gotten it on his FAC, of course]. I don't know where this thing about needing to shoot on a military range has come from, but it is simply not true. There are, surprisingly, over 1400 gun clubs in the UK, including the one that I belong to, and it is a civilian range.

Here are the range limitations on MY gun club 100 and 50m ranges - typical of short ranges throughout the UK -

ANY rifles - 3280 fps/5150 ft lbs - up to and including .75cal [any Brown Bess or similar muzzleloading arm].

ANY pistol calibre firearm - 2150 fps/1496 ft lbs.

ANY sub- .25cal - 4000 fps/1765 ft lbs.

If the OP cares to bring his rifle here, having gotten it entered on his FAC, he can shoot it until the barrel glows red in the dusk.

 

[Feltwad]

Only on a MILITARY APROVED Range.
Feltwad

 

[Britsmoothy]

The MAIN reason why muzzleloaders are not generally allowed for shooting deer in the UK lies in the fact that very few muzzle-loading rifles, if any, can meet the muzzle energy AND velocity requirements for shooting deer in Scotland.

SCOTLAND

Roe Deer:
The bullet must weigh at least 50 grains and have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second. A minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds may be used.

All deer of any species:
The bullet must weigh at least 100 grains and have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second and a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds.

PLEASE NOTE that all these figures are the minimum legal requirement.

For all deer stalking the bullet must be of a type designed to expand/deform on impact. For example soft nose or ballistic tip.

Now all KNOW just how effective a muzzleloader can be in the USA, where we mostly agree that deer and other game can be taken at up to 150 yards. A second or follow-up shot is also very difficult to accomplish with a muzzleloader, especially as the wounded animal takes off for another part of the highlands at 40 mph.

Well, Gentlemen, please accept from me that you will only EVER get to within 150 yards of a deer in Scotland is somebody has already shot it stone dead. There is NO cover on the hill, apart from a sneaky fold in the ground.

That ultra-long barrel on the OP's rifle is there to take advantage of every grain of powder burn obtainable to drive the bullet.

I got under 100yds a few times on the hill. Loch Dochart estate.
There is also reds in forest also on the hills!

 

[TFoley]

This is from the Government's own publications - see - Firearms

Background

1. Civilian ranges have historically been inspected and certified by the military. We made use of this scheme in our firearms controls to help ensure that target shooting takes place safely. Home Office and Scottish Executive approved clubs are required to have regular use of a range with a safety certificate, and a standard condition is included on firearm certificates for individual target shooters requiring them to shoot only on ranges with a safety certificate issued by the Ministry of Defence.
2. Following an internal review, the military has ended its inspection and certification scheme for civilian ranges. The Home Office has consulted extensively with ACPO, ACPO Scotland and shooting organisations to agree how best to adapt those parts of the firearms controls that relied on the defunct scheme. This letter describes the new arrangements that have been agreed.

New arrangements

1. The responsibility will now be placed more firmly on range owners/operators to ensure that their range is constructed and maintained safely. Failure to do so will leave them liable to sanctions under a range of legislation, such as the Occupiers’ Liability Act 1957, the Occupiers’ Liability (Scotland) Act 1960 and the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974. See Annex A for further details. The criteria for club approval and affected certificate conditions have been revised to remove references to Ministry of Defence safety certificates (see Annex B).
2. A number of measures have been put in place to provide assurance that ranges remain safe.

etc...........................................

 

[jdw276]

Only on a MILITARY APROVED Range.
Feltwad

Over here we have state laws that will differ sometimes in respects to minimum calibers days to hunt, shoot, type of gun etc with federal law. Is there such a thing Feltwad where there could be a difference by local? Local rule versus one rule for all as we call federal law. We have counties where you can shoot off your back porch, and counties where you can't own a gun. Other cities can't own a gun, cities that require you to own a gun. It is sometimes all about where you live in these states.

 

[TFoley]

Feltwad and I have solved our minor differences, he being a very nice chap and all. If I may go aways to answering your question - the law as I stated above is the law for Scotland.

The laws for Northern Ireland and England/Wales is slightly different, but not by much.

Here in UK each separate country in the UK has its own interpretation of the minimum humane requirements for the taking of live game of all kinds. We do not have states, as you know, but we DO have counties, and the gun laws of the country in which those counties are located is followed exactly by the firearms and explosives licensing department of the county police force.

I'm sorry that this thread has departed so far from the admiration of a highly unusual and fascinating firearm of a kind that is about as near to a long rifle from the golden Age as you are ever likely to see here in UK.

 

[Rudyard]

Well there you are. All based on nitro ballistics with snobbery added .If your reading this you know the muzzle loaders can kill deer ect perfectly well , ditto suitable bows .( Ditto 600 nitro designed for Elephant but too slow apparently to bowl deer ! ) Though these last I only add to show the idiocy of these 'approuved ballistics'. As for stalking ranges I once stalked deer in Scotland to about 30 yards I only had an air rifle( after rabbits ) and NO intention of using it just to' count coupe' more fluke and not to decrie T Foleys assertions though they are a world (Or half of one) Away from what the Emigree NZ Reds require here . Mostly forest shots at 20 to 40 yards much beyond they are hidden anyway . The Scottish stalk was

one early morning as my friends camped by the road side . On reflection not the wisest plan ( bit of stick would been enough ). Aprouved ranges both Govt & private are numerous if useually threatened by the niebourhood anti gun mob . Yes he can put it on ticket but more cost & officialdom who needs it ? . Could you tell us Who dreamed up these requisite ballistics ?. .
Regards & hope I don't rattle Zonie overly Rudyard

 

[Zonie]

Well actually, several posts in this thread rattle me.

The thread is about a Scottish percussion deer rifle. It has gotten off track and become a series of posts dealing with various laws in the UK which have nothing to do with the gun that started this thread.

To you all: please keep the discussions on the subject rifle and stop discussing hunting laws, shooting ranges and who controls them and other unrelated things.

 

[Tinhorn]

I'm really impressed with the metal work on this fast-twist rifle, and it would be a treat to see the projectile and powder charge it used. What distances, if any, are marked on the sight leaves? This is one fine rifle, and sort of reminds me of our Buffalo Guns used on the Great Plains on our side of the pond, long range sights, big caliber, and so forth.
As for the barrel lug, that is quite a piece of work to install on that beautiful draw-filed stub-twist barrel. I have filed out one octagon type Leman barrel, and it was days of work, and many New! files. Yours is much nicer than mine, much more evenly shaped. How is it attached; your muzzle is much thinner-wall than mine. I used silver solder on my under-rib, and thimbles. Was it brazed on?
Can we see any pictures of the projectiles this rifle would have shot? Tinhorn

 

[SDSmlf]

Well actually, several posts in this thread rattle me.

Editorial comment. You seem to ‘guide’ us through most discussions with a steady hand, even when some or even all don’t agree. Calling BS on you getting ‘rattled’, but who knows, no idea what my wife’s cat is thinking either.

Back to regular programming. I’m curious about the lug on the side of the barrel. Don’t see it as practical for a shooting stick or sticks. Just doesn’t balance. And definitely different than any bayonet lug I have seen. And being percussion, well past the time when some militaries viewed long guns as pikes that went bang. Could it be a one off for a specific purpose that we are just too blind to see (as in can’t see the forest because of the trees)? Obviously not common. Went through old books and catalogs I have and found nothing remotely similar. But it is a gun I would love to come across and have the opportunity to purchase, or at least hold and examine. Great find.

 

[Relic shooter]

Very nice original rifle Feltwad, thanks for sharing !!!
I observed & owned similar custom rifles & pistols over the years by English, Scottish & French makers that also had non-standard bayonet lugs similar to yours that were obviously made for wealthy officers.
Usually the bore size of these custom firearms matches the military arms being used in that era.
Your rifle for certain has the longest barrel I've seen, owner must have been pretty muscular brute.
Please let us know the caliber, bore stats & how it performs at the range.
Relic shooter