Scopes for handicapped in Idaho?

[wtilenw]

This from IDFG's January meeting:
REPORT
Accommodations for Disabled Hunters
Dale Toweill, Wildlife Program Coordinator, provided an informational report on a civil rights complaint against the Department. Mr. Toweill stated that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service investigated a civil rights complaint filed by Mr. Toby Bridges (North American Muzzleloader Hunting Association) against Idaho and a number of other states. The basis of the complaint was that Idaho and other states “discriminates against hunters on the basis of disability and age by restricting the use of telescopic scopes for muzzleloader hunting.” The Department responded that older hunters and hunters with visual disabilities can use telescopic sights in any weapon hunts which are available throughout the state and constitute the majority of the big game hunting opportunity in Idaho. Muzzleloader hunts are a unique hunting opportunity based in part on the low technology and lower effectiveness of the weapon, and hunters must choose to participate in the limited muzzleloader hunts. The USFWS found that “if persons with visual disabilities were denied opportunities for reasonable modifications in the special muzzleloader season, they would not only be placed at a competitive disadvantage, but would be screened out of the main muzzleloader activity, and effectively segregated in a different activity (which is prohibited under Department of the Interior regulations).” Therefore, the USFWS has requested Idaho and the other states to provide “a written description of the process for persons with disabilities to receive special permits based on the documented need for reasonable modification during muzzleloader hunting seasons.”
Idaho has a number of permits and licenses to address various disabilities. However, none of the existing permits or licenses addresses this issue. The Department has drafted a proposed rule to create a process to allow reasonable modifications for special weapon hunting seasons.
Rule 13.01.08.410 expressly prohibits sighting devices that magnify the target image for all Archery-only, Traditional Archery-only, and Muzzleloader-only seasons.
This issue is presented to the Commission in an effort to resolve a compliance issue identified by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service relative to a Disability and Age Discrimination Complaint by Mr. Tony Bridges of the North American Muzzleloader Hunting Association.
17
Mr. Toweill distributed a draft proposal (Appendix 41, Exhibit 15) IDAPA 13.01.04.305 to the Commission for their consideration at a later date.

 

[Little Wattsy]

This from IDFG's January meeting:
REPORT
Accommodations for Disabled Hunters
Dale Toweill, Wildlife Program Coordinator, provided an informational report on a civil rights complaint against the Department. Mr. Toweill stated that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service investigated a civil rights complaint filed by Mr. Toby Bridges (North American Muzzleloader Hunting Association) against Idaho and a number of other states. The basis of the complaint was that Idaho and other states “discriminates against hunters on the basis of disability and age by restricting the use of telescopic scopes for muzzleloader hunting.” The Department responded that older hunters and hunters with visual disabilities can use telescopic sights in any weapon hunts which are available throughout the state and constitute the majority of the big game hunting opportunity in Idaho. Muzzleloader hunts are a unique hunting opportunity based in part on the low technology and lower effectiveness of the weapon, and hunters must choose to participate in the limited muzzleloader hunts. The USFWS found that “if persons with visual disabilities were denied opportunities for reasonable modifications in the special muzzleloader season, they would not only be placed at a competitive disadvantage, but would be screened out of the main muzzleloader activity, and effectively segregated in a different activity (which is prohibited under Department of the Interior regulations).” Therefore, the USFWS has requested Idaho and the other states to provide “a written description of the process for persons with disabilities to receive special permits based on the documented need for reasonable modification during muzzleloader hunting seasons.”
Idaho has a number of permits and licenses to address various disabilities. However, none of the existing permits or licenses addresses this issue. The Department has drafted a proposed rule to create a process to allow reasonable modifications for special weapon hunting seasons.
Rule 13.01.08.410 expressly prohibits sighting devices that magnify the target image for all Archery-only, Traditional Archery-only, and Muzzleloader-only seasons.
This issue is presented to the Commission in an effort to resolve a compliance issue identified by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service relative to a Disability and Age Discrimination Complaint by Mr. Tony Bridges of the North American Muzzleloader Hunting Association.
17
Mr. Toweill distributed a draft proposal (Appendix 41, Exhibit 15) IDAPA 13.01.04.305 to the Commission for their consideration at a later date.

Would it also be considerded discriminatory that the hunts are held in mountianous areas some which are unaccessable to cripples and oldsters....I want state provided 4 wheelers and and more accessable logging roads to where the game is! :bull:

 

[Greenmtnboy]

Well I guess they will now let old folks compete in bike races on motorcycles.
I bet a lot young folks are going to have a permission slip from their eye doc next fall :bull:

 

[tg]

It will not stop as there is way to much money and influence behind the push to modernize ML hunting seasons.

 

[tg]

Wait a minute now that I think about it, what's the problem...there were scopes in the civil war, there were non-optical sighting tubes even earlier, what did Galileo look at the stars with?
why a problem with scopes, but modern connicals and peep sights are Ok, I don't get it. this isn't supposed to be somekind of primitive or limited technology hunt is it?, if it loads from the front then we should all hang together.

 

[wtilenw]

What I can see happening is there will be no more special hunts. They will all be "any weapon" hunts. I think the "modern muzzleloader' industry would die out overnight if that were the case. Bubba would just use the .30-378 with the 6.5-20 scope if he could.

 

[tg]

The way many states have their ML seasons set up now I really don't see wht they bother with anything called a ML season, loading from the front is only part of what these guns are about, at some time someone is going to realize that there is little difference between the guns that load from the front but have sighting and ballistic capabilities out to 300 yds and a #1 Ruger or any single shot cartridge gun, that is kind of bothersome when the possibility that any ML may be in the same class as a single shot cartridge gun.The distinction twixt old and new really needs to be maintained or we may be buying ML kits/parts thru a Federal Firearms dealer

 

[Little Wattsy]

The way many states have their ML seasons set up now I really don't see wht they bother with anything called a ML season, loading from the front is only part of what these guns are about, at some time someone is going to realize that there is little difference between the guns that load from the front but have sighting and ballistic capabilities out to 300 yds and a #1 Ruger or any single shot cartridge gun, that is kind of bothersome when the possibility that any ML may be in the same class as a single shot cartridge gun.The distinction twixt old and new really needs to be maintained or we may be buying ML kits/parts thru a Federal Firearms dealer

I MOST humbaly tend to disagree IF certian regs (like those in OR, WA, and ID) exist....IF there is an open ignition system and open non-fiber optic sights, and NO sabots; Well those three alone will keep it quit challangeing just fine. NOW I understand the alure of being PC and all but in that to each his own...an inline that meets the afore mentioned requirements will NOT outshoot any sidelock and therefore should NOT be considered a threat.
The ruination of the "sport" would be 3.allowing sabots 2.allowing closed ignition and 1.(WORST OF ALL) allowing modified sights up to the the greatest equalizer in muzzleloader hunting....a scope.
Just :2

And just for the record...Im sure we all know the guy who hit a running deer at some 300 yards.... :bull:
Well I am certian that there are no REAL ballistics in ANY ML that will allow a real shot at anything near 300 yards. MY T/C will spit-em that far but NOT in a hunting sence. In FACT I know VERY FEW people who could REALLY hit a deer with a 7 mag at 300 REAL yards even though that gun will do it...Thats a LONG LONG ways at a deer sized anything. ANYWAY....the best muzleloader tops out between 150 and 200 for an ethical hunter reguardless of sights, bullets, "pellets" etc. And for the UN-ethical hunter... well, gut shooting a deer at 75 yards with a sidelock or gut shooting a deer at 175 with a scoped inline is still a pee poor example of a hunter!
Somehow I feel that I should delete this as I am porbably WAY ff but I type so slow that I cant bring myself to do it...SORRY :surrender: :rotf:

P.S. TG I hold you in highest regards and am not really questioning you as much as spilling an opinion

 

[tg]

There are ML's now that willshoot alomg with the 30/30 and other centerfires, the projectiles and sjghts of a modern desigmn have been the building blocks for the modern ML and I don't see the trend to reverse on the horizon, folks new to the sport or those just wanting to kill an xtra deer have little use for the trdaitional gear and will go for the modern stuff even if it is used with a side lock, time will tell, but I think the pressre is to great to really take the ML seasons back to what they were intended to be.

 

[BV]

I think a lot of the allowances for more modern technology in muzzleloaders are due to the desperation of deer managers in a lot of states to raise the antlerless kill. I don't think the ML season in Missouri is very heavily hunted, and they want to encourage participation. I know quite a few rifle hunters who own inlines, but never hunt with them. It ain't too hard to fill all the tags you want during the regular rifle season.

I also think it is too late to restore ML seasons to what they were meant to be. The game managers want more hunters, and the inline guys only want more time to find a monster buck. There aren't very many people more concerned with HOW they kill a deer than IF they kill a deer.

 

[Little Wattsy]

I think a lot of the allowances for more modern technology in muzzleloaders are due to the desperation of deer managers in a lot of states to raise the antlerless kill. I don't think the ML season in Missouri is very heavily hunted, and they want to encourage participation. I know quite a few rifle hunters who own inlines, but never hunt with them. It ain't too hard to fill all the tags you want during the regular rifle season.

I also think it is too late to restore ML seasons to what they were meant to be. The game managers want more hunters, and the inline guys only want more time to find a monster buck. There aren't very many people more concerned with HOW they kill a deer than IF they kill a deer.

I tend to agree :hmm:

 

[huntman58]

I think a lot of the allowances for more modern technology in muzzleloaders are due to the desperation of deer managers in a lot of states to raise the antlerless kill. I don't think the ML season in Missouri is very heavily hunted, and they want to encourage participation. I know quite a few rifle hunters who own inlines, but never hunt with them. It ain't too hard to fill all the tags you want during the regular rifle season.

I also think it is too late to restore ML seasons to what they were meant to be. The game managers want more hunters, and the inline guys only want more time to find a monster buck. There aren't very many people more concerned with HOW they kill a deer than IF they kill a deer.

I tend to agree :hmm:

Same here. I do know that the numbers of hunters and sales of licenses tags ECT is down all across the country. Being a disabled hunter I do get upset with some of the extras some get. I have trouble getting around or walking much more then a 1/4 mile or so at a time but I refuse to use any thing but my feet to help me. I can use a 4x4 but I course not to. This has also meant less meat in the freezer but to me the sport is not if I get some thing but it is the time I spent in the woods. My last point is this "if you can not see well enough to see your front sight can you see well enough to identify your target and that it is not a person?” there are times when a person has to call things quites. I have done that with some of my stream fishing because of my walking so now I enjoy, Lake and trolling more then I ever did. It did not mean I could not fish only that I had to change how I chouse to fish. I love hunting but I also know that to keep me and other safe I have to be able to see and identify my target and not by only using a scope with my gun pointed at some thing or one I do not plan to shot not a good idea. Okay off my soap box now

 

[Dave K]

I want to be in the woods with people who can't see well enough to hunt? Ok, I know that is not the intent, but give me a break. I can't shoot accurately with open sights either past a certain yardage. So I limit my yardage. I do the came thing with my bow. Should I plead for explosive arrows, so I can take longer shots? I think an eye exam is needed. If these people think that they have to hunt. Maybe at the grocery store they need larger print to see the price as well. :bull: Wait, does that mean they are going to be behind the wheel of a vehicle, getting to the store? Let me know the route these blind people travel.

 

[Little Wattsy]

I want to be in the woods with people who can't see well enough to hunt? Ok, I know that is not the intent, but give me a break. I can't shoot accurately with open sights either past a certain yardage. So I limit my yardage. I do the came thing with my bow. Should I plead for explosive arrows, so I can take longer shots? I think an eye exam is needed. If these people think that they have to hunt. Maybe at the grocery store they need larger print to see the price as well. :bull: Wait, does that mean they are going to be behind the wheel of a vehicle, getting to the store? Let me know the route these blind people travel.

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: