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Rifle Fit

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gbeauvin

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How does one go about figuring out the right "fit" for a flintlock rifle? I realize that if I go with a production rifle then it just is what it is, and I should find somewhere to shoulder the various models and see what feels good. If I go with a budget semi-custom though, how do I figure out what to ask for in terms of LOP, etc?

I was at a muzzle-loading specialty shop while out of town the other day and got to shoulder several guns... the GPR felt better than the TC hawken (both in percussion, but I want flint). He had a pair of flintlocks on the wall and one (the pricier one) felt waay better than the other when I shouldered them, but i haven't the foggiest idea why.

-GB
 
The one that felt better probably had a Nice LOP and a good "cast off that fit you right. LOP means Length of pull. To find this out bend your elbow at a 90 degree angle, now measure the length between your elbow an the middle of your trigger finger, that's your LOP. "Cast off" is where the stock is bent just a little, 1/4" or so, so that when you shoulder the rifle the sights line up without you having to bend your head way over the stock.
 
I'm not qualified to answer, cause I ain't a good explainer some times but a big factor along with LOP is the "Drop".
Drop is the position of the butt in relation to the line created by the barrel.
I know there have been a few threads down in the Gun Builders section about fit that are explained by some of the pro's,,
 
Cast off is where the butt plate is set 1/8-1/4 inch off center to the barrel when building a gun to help line up the sights...

The stock is not bent...
 
Yea, I know :redface: , I should have used the word "offset" instead, but the edit time ended before I could make the change.
 
Guy's, he understands that he can shoulder factory guns and like or dislike them.

He's asking what to ask for in a custom build.
 
nchawkeye said:
...The stock is not bent...

You guys are both right. The gun can either be built with cast off/on or the wrist can be bent later, as is often done when fitting shotguns to individuals. Enjoy, J.D.
 
"Hold the rifle, close your eyes and shoulder it...Your eyes should be looking down the sights..."

There is more to it than that.

I have a T/C Hawken and a T/C Renengade in 45. The Hawken has a 15/16s barrel and has a cheek piece. The Renegade has a 1" barrel, no cheek piece.

Barrels are slow twist from Green Mountain and outfitted with T/C Contender pistol sights and Lyman Globe front sights. These are line rifles.

There is world of difference in shooting them and winning.

It comes down to upper body strength, the Hawken is light and fits my upper body strength, the Renegade does not, too heavy.

I have lusted for several rifles over the years and found with my body build, I cannot shoot rifles with too much drop in the stock, does not work for me.

I have a really nice Pedersoli Hawken, it's too heavy for my upper body strength to shoot off hand and I have to crawl up the stock to see the sights. I shoot a Pedersoli Tryon in silhouette matches and it fits me perfect.

Stock fit depends on the butt plate configuration and where you shoot the rifle on your body, off your arm or off your shoulder.

Lots of variables to consider in stock fit, one size does not fit all.

Not a simple answer at all.
 
Ah! The question of firearm fit is not an easy one to answer. This is a nation of hunters and marksmen that have about accepted the status quo and learned to adapt their style to the fit of the gun. With many of us it began in the service where one stock was issued for the many sized soldiers. Light weight cloths or heavy coats the individual made do.

You have noticed that most of the factory MLR's made today have subtle differences in length of pull , weight and others. There are a rare few that find one or the other fits like a glove.
My self the GPR by Lyman fits me very well. I find the weight of the 54 just right.

Now let me tell you a true tale! I worked for IBM and money was not much of an issue so when I decided to buy a flint lock I sought out a local builder that was very well thought of all over Texas. Davie took several measurements up front and he had at least four fittings over the course of the build. The results were a 40 caliber long rifle that was not only a thing of beauty but fit me as well as a gun can.

As thrilled as I was with this rifle it always bothered me a little that despite the fit and finish and it made to my dimensions I could not shoot it any better than the ones I was adapting to. In my case I guess my talent is the limiting factor! Good Luck in your quest! Geo. T.
 
nchawkeye said:
...close your eyes and shoulder it...Your eyes should be looking down the sights....

That's the ultimate test for me. Most of our shots are quick, and you want the sights lined up right in front of your eyes the second the butt hits your shoulder and the comb hits your cheek. Any horsing around with the sight alignment is going to cost you a shot.

Same reason I don't really care to use a set trigger when hunting on two legs, rather than sitting and waiting for the deer to come to me. Time you pull two triggers, get you sights lined up, then aim, you might as well stay home and watch TV.
 
Those deer on TV are dumber than the ones in real life and the odds of getting a trophy are a lot higher too! :haha: :haha: :haha:

Seriously though, I use those TV deer to dry fire on while concentrating on keeping the sights steady. Shoot enough of 'em and you hardly notice when the gun goes off on the real thing.:wink:

Enjoy, J.D.
 
jdkerstetter said:
Shoot enough of 'em...

Lotta deer I hear about locally at least were probably TV deer. After watching the way the story tellers move through the woods, you know for sure they aren't seeing many real deer. :rotf:
 
I've been building "spec" MLers for quite a few years and to determine the drops at both comb and heel, LOP, pitch {can vary a lot depending on the Bplate} and castoff , I shouldered many rifles and invited many others to do the same. The result was that the specs that "fit" me" fit" most people and this was borne out by friends and others coming over and shouldering my builds and offering their usual remark.... "this rifle really comes in".

Seeing I build spec Mlers and use my own specs, my builds are somewhat akin to "some factory guns for the masses", but w/o their bulbous cheekpieces and combs that are too high, although many factory guns shoulder fine and some were used to determine my specs.....Fred
 
I guess I should mention that I have never owned a factory built traditional muzzleloader, they never appealed to me...

The first flintlock I bought was one Bob Watts built for a fellow back in 1977...The gun didn't fit the guy...When Bob handed me the gun he said, close your eyes and shoulder the gun...Once I did he said, now open your eyes and tell me what you see...I said, I'm looking right down the sights...

Naturally, I bought that rifle...It cost me $475...Today a Bob Watts rifle will cost you several times that...

When I built my .54 back in the 80s I learned more about rifle fit...I put a quarter inch of cast off on her...The nice thing was, after finishing the stock I was able to remove wood from the cheek piece to my satisfaction...

Custom makers can make measurements and get real close to what their customer wants...But, as Bob explained to me later, it's not always perfect...
 
Most target guns these days are built with shorter LOP's than most factory guns. Very often, about 13" is pretty normal for a .22 caliber free rifle. You will need a shorter LOP for shooting offhand than prone. You will need a lower comb in offhand than in prone too. The elbow to trigger finger thing for LOP is a guideline, but not a rule. Everyone feels more comfortable with one style or length over another. And, it's usually shorter than they think it SHOULD be. I'm working on a gun now that will have just a 12 3/4" LOP, and that's for a normal sized guy to hunt with.
 
This is my explanation of the elements of fit and their affect on recoil and gun handling.

Most obvious and easiest is length of pull. The standard is place the butt in the crook of your arm and can you wrap put your finger on the trigger properly. If you are going to be wearing a certain set of clothes put them on to make this measurement. The stock LOP is 13.5 inches but this can vary greatly among individuals. You are better off with a LOP that is a quarter inch to short than too long.

Next is comb
The straighter the barrel and action aligns with the butt stock the less felt recoil and it also lessens the muzzle rise. Thus the popularity of thee Weatherby style stock for hard hitting magnums. In other words you want the line of recoil force to be as straight back into the centre of your shoulder as you can manage.

Height. of comb and drop are dependent on how long your neck is and how high on your head your eyes are set. This actually varies a great deal from one person to another. You want a good cheek weld. If the comb is too low you will feel the comb slap you and you will not get consistent groups. if it is too high you will be pushing down too hard too see through the scope. Some comb issues can be addressed by changing the height of the rings.

Next is cant

More common on shotguns but also can be found on custom riffles. Cant is where the ttop of the comb is left or right of vertical to account for a particular shooters tendency to cant the gun left or right from vertical. The idea is to have the shooter comfortable but still have the gun straight up and down.

Finally is cast

This refers to the gun stock being bent left or right. The most extreme example would be a stock built for a right hand shooter that use their left eye for aiming. The idea of cast is to look straight down the barrel without having to crane your neck or adopt other uncomfortable positions.

For felt recoil the proper length of pull and a straight line of recoil, along with the right comb height are the most important factors.

Hope this helps.

PS Took me a while to write this and i see a bunch of others weighed in with good info in between.


This second description was provided by a long time gun maker "Leeper"

Rifle fit is usually accomplished by the most adjustable part of the equation - the shooter. Most shooters have, by long use of rifles which may or may not have fit them well, adapted to the point that they feel pretty good. This makes it a bit difficult to truly fit a rifle to the individual if such fitting is based solely on his or her physical characteristics. Many shorter riflemen tend to shoot across their body because they have had to do so in order to be comfortable with rifles which were too long for them. Women often tend to lean back too much and tilt their head to the side because they feel overbalanced by rifles which are too long and too heavy for them and by differences in their physiology.
Another problem we run into is, in rifle design, all too often, function follows form. There is some justification for this. If we look at many of today's tactical and target stocks, where it can be said that form follows function, the form is often a bit on the homely side. Homely or not, they at least fit well on the shoulder and allow for a solid cheek weld while placing the hand in a comfortable position. Still, the appearance would have to be classed in the "acquired taste" category.
If we establish what we consider to be proper form, we can then attempt to fit the rifle to the shooter who is holding it properly. When shooting offhand or from any other position, for that matter, the line of the bore should be at forty-five degrees to a line drawn across the shoulders. The head must be held so the eye is aligned with the scope. If, in the offhand position, this results in the thumb of the hand on the grip being closer than about 3/4 inch from the nose, the stock is too short. If the shooter has to stretch to get within 3/4 inch of said thumb, the stock is too long. If the shooter has to make the angle more acute (shoot across the body), the stock may be too long or the shooter's shoulder may be wide enough that he requires some cast-off to be built into the stock. If the shooter has to tilt his head to the side, some cast-off would help. If he has to push his face too tightly against the stock to achieve alignment, some cast off may help or some thinning of the comb might be necessary.
With the rifle held comfortably against the shoulder, the rifle should be level. If it is not, it may be necessary to build some cant into the butt.
All of this is just scratching the surface and shows just how complex fitting a stock could be if we were to get too carried away with it. Fortunately, we are, ourselves, very adjustable and can get away with changing only those things which are readily changed; stock length, pitch, cant, height of the line of sight, etc.
Shoot a rifle for a while and, if there is something about the fit which really bugs you, see if it can be corrected tastefully (without duct tape or plumbing repair parts).
As far as recoil is concerned, use padding when shooting from the bench. Don't let the rifle hurt you and you won't develop a flinch. Leeper
 
You've menbtioned some excellent points on "gun fit"....many different factors. I think MLers, are a little different story because of the "original" styles coming into play. Who wants a "modern looking" flintlock....so, I think it's a little more difficult to "fit" someone for an "original style" that's still w/in reason as far as "fit".

Lancaster style LRs are the basis for modern buttstock rifle design and are fairly easy to properly "fit". Lehigh LRs of various makers are a different story....takes a little bit of doing to build this style so it's comfortable to shoot and probably the reason it didn't influence modern rifle design.

Original Hawken design w/ it's "skinny" butts and deep dished Bplates are also difficult to "make comfortable" and most require an upper arm hold which actually is a contortion of the human body. It likewise had no influence on modern stock design.

Original fowler design did influence modern shotgun stock design and original fowlers even by today's standards would "fit" right in.

Granted the Weatherby stock design is the most comfortable and it needs to be considering the cartridges chambered for these rifles....but we don't want MLers to look like a Weatherby.....Fred
 
flehto said:
Y

Granted the Weatherby stock design is the most comfortable and it needs to be considering the cartridges chambered for these rifles....but we don't want MLers to look like a Weatherby.....Fred
Now that I absolutely agree with. :grin: Was using the Weatherby design more as an example of how far stock design has evolved in order to deal with the very high recoil of modern guns.
 
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