Removing & installing dovetail front sight

[renegadehunter]

I have a new front sight to install on my Renegade. I've read that some dovetails have a taper and need to be driven out/in a certain direction. I've also read several contradictory things about which way this is.
The common saying I've seen is "Drive it right out unless you want it left in".
To me this means that with the muzzle pointing away like it would when you shoot, you would remove a sight by placing the punch on the left side of the sight and drive it to the right. Yet several youtube videos of supposed gunsmiths are driving them out to the left side. So, which is it? To establish directions that can't be confused, with the barrel pointing as it would when shooting, which side of the sight should the punch be placed to REMOVE it?

I'm worried I may have removed the taper, if there is one, on my barrel because I removed my old front sight by placing the punch on the left side of the sight and driving it to the right to remove it. It did not require a lot of effort to get it out this way, just some semi firm tapping. I did put it back in after finding that the new sight isn't an easy install without some filing, and the old sight holds fine so I'm probably okay on how I did it.

The new sight will not go in. I can get it slightly started into the dovetail, but then it would require way too much beating on it to get it to the center of the barrel. The aluminum Williams sight shows some metal starting to be scraped on the top, right side of the angled edge when looking straight down on the top of the sight with the muzzle to my right side. I'm glad I didn't beat on it and try to force it.
I've since read that sights are manufactured to be slightly oversized and require some filing. One post I read said that just filing the bottom of the sight base, a couple passes at a time and then check fit, will get it to the point that it will fit.
Any help will be greatly appreciated, I don't want it to end up damaged or too loose of a fit.

 

[Hawgeye]

I always try to remove sights in a dovetail from right to left. Most manufacturers of modern arms recommend this. This is not universal so try right to left first and if that doesn't feel right go left to right. When installing the new sight, make up the fit on the sight and not the dovetail. I work the sides of the sight rather than the bottom. I do flatten the bottom of the sight on a stone or a fine file. Go slow and check fit often.

 

[Blind Dog]

And there is the problem. I was taught, with the muzzle pointed away from you, left to right to remove. Right to left to install. I suppose, as suggested above, try it one way and if you get excessive resistance try it the other. One additional note. Be sure to use a brass punch to avoid damaging your sight or barrel.

 

[Hawgeye]

And there is the problem. I was taught, with the muzzle pointed away from you, left to right to remove. Right to left to install. I suppose, as suggested above, try it one way and if you get excessive resistance try it the other. One additional note. Be sure to use a brass punch to avoid damaging your sight or barrel.

Yep, lots of confusion when dealing with ML from different manufacturers from different countries and custom, semi-custom and hobby builders all installing sights. I've found dovetails on some production ML with different tapers on the front and rear, some with no tapers and some with the tapers on the base of the sights. Definitely a brass or delrin punch like Blind Dog advised, go slow and check the fit often.

 

[Gowacky]

I was dumb enough to take mine to a gunsmith who chose to open the dove tail on the barrel instead of filing the sight dove tail.

 

[Hawgeye]

I was dumb enough to take mine to a gunsmith who chose to open the dove tail on the barrel instead of filing the sight dove tail.

It's easier and faster to open up the dovetail with a safe side file. Time = money, but it makes it difficult to find another sight with a matching cut to the sight base. I find a lot of dovetails with center punch dimples on the bottom and the top edges upset to secure the sight.

 

[Gowacky]

I figured as much, just didn’t expect it.

So, if I order another sight from the same mfg, Williams, will it fit or do they vary?

 

[Gowacky]

And I was told this was a job for a gunsmith but now having knocked a couple out and back in, I’m thinking a gunsmith may do a better job than I can but as he is an hour away and terribly slow and expensive, I believe I’ll do it myself if there is a next time.

 

[ZUG]

I have a new front sight to install on my Renegade. I've read that some dovetails have a taper and need to be driven out/in a certain direction.
The common saying I've seen is "Drive it right out unless you want it left in".
To me this means that with the muzzle pointing away like it would when you shoot, you would remove a sight by placing the punch on the left side of the sight and drive it to the right.

The new sight will not go in. I can get it slightly started into the dovetail, but then it would require way too much beating on it to get it to the center of the barrel. The aluminum Williams sight shows some metal starting to be scraped on the top, right side of the angled edge when looking straight down on the top of the sight with the muzzle to my right side. I'm glad I didn't beat on it and try to force it.
I've since read that sights are manufactured to be slightly oversized and require some filing. One post I read said that just filing the bottom of the sight base, a couple passes at a time and then check fit, will get it to the point that it will fit.
Any help will be greatly appreciated, I don't want it to end up damaged or too loose of a fit.

"Drive it right out unless you want it left in" This is the correct way to remove & replace the dovetail sight. The dovetail is cut with a dovetail cutter and during the many dovetail slots that that cutter makes there is wear and the result is a slot that is not all EXACTLY the same size on all guns so the people that make replacement sights make them SLIGHTLY oversized to be fitted to the barrel dovetail. The proper method is to dress the sight to the barrel dovetail as this is the most inexpensive part to replace if you screw up. As far as the "taper" IF it has any may only be 1/2 of a thousandth of an inch which does not sound like much but it produces a very tight fit when done correctly. Use a very fine triangular file and make ONLY one or two strokes at a time on one side of the sight's dovetail and do not try to taper the sights dovetail keep it straight then test - a little oil will help the install -apply reasonable force with the drift only - don't try to pound it in.

 

[Gowacky]

Wish I’d read this before I spent $60 and waited a month.

 

[renegadehunter]

Thanks all, I'm going to give it a try this weekend. Need to pick up a triangular file.

 

[Pete G]

Most ML, if tapered, go from left to right. Modern arms are generally opposite.

 

[nhmoose]

Measuring the sides of the slot with a dial caliper will tell you if it is tapered and which way if it is.

Many modern dovetails have no taper because the mill cutter is run all the way through.

 

[hanshi]

I've replaced several rear and front sights on a few of my rifles and always filed the SIGHT and not the barrel dovetail. Can't remember what direction I tapped them out & in.

 

[necchi]

I've also read several contradictory things about which way this is.

I have to chuckle here a bit renegadehunter,,
Because you've received the same conflicting info already here today.
Your common saying thing is the gig,
And you have the Right/Left side correct,, just like a car as your sitting in it,, your right side is the right of the vehicle.
Get it?
* Installing the sight,, start it on the right side and drive it in.
* Remove a sight,, start punching it out from the left side.
I've done a bunch of the T/C's and that way has always worked well for me.
As Zug said "if" there's a difference it's tiny. What matters is that "you" do it the same each time.

Why are you changing the front? A taller one? Renegades have the Patridge style that I love so much,,
Or do you like that goofy bead?

 

[M. De Land]

I have a new front sight to install on my Renegade. I've read that some dovetails have a taper and need to be driven out/in a certain direction. I've also read several contradictory things about which way this is.
The common saying I've seen is "Drive it right out unless you want it left in".
To me this means that with the muzzle pointing away like it would when you shoot, you would remove a sight by placing the punch on the left side of the sight and drive it to the right. Yet several youtube videos of supposed gunsmiths are driving them out to the left side. So, which is it? To establish directions that can't be confused, with the barrel pointing as it would when shooting, which side of the sight should the punch be placed to REMOVE it?

I'm worried I may have removed the taper, if there is one, on my barrel because I removed my old front sight by placing the punch on the left side of the sight and driving it to the right to remove it. It did not require a lot of effort to get it out this way, just some semi firm tapping. I did put it back in after finding that the new sight isn't an easy install without some filing, and the old sight holds fine so I'm probably okay on how I did it.

The new sight will not go in. I can get it slightly started into the dovetail, but then it would require way too much beating on it to get it to the center of the barrel. The aluminum Williams sight shows some metal starting to be scraped on the top, right side of the angled edge when looking straight down on the top of the sight with the muzzle to my right side. I'm glad I didn't beat on it and try to force it.
I've since read that sights are manufactured to be slightly oversized and require some filing. One post I read said that just filing the bottom of the sight base, a couple passes at a time and then check fit, will get it to the point that it will fit.
Any help will be greatly appreciated, I don't want it to end up damaged or too loose of a fit.

Most are not directional now days. An easy check is to measure the cross section, on each side of the male sight base that goes into the barrel dovetail slot. This will tell you if there is any taper. Tapers are no good in front sight bases anyway because you can't move them right or left for windage without making them loose or to tight and deforming metal.

 

[renegadehunter]

I have to chuckle here a bit renegadehunter,,
Because you've received the same conflicting info already here today.
Your common saying thing is the gig,
And you have the Right/Left side correct,, just like a car as your sitting in it,, your right side is the right of the vehicle.
Get it?
* Installing the sight,, start it on the right side and drive it in.
* Remove a sight,, start punching it out from the left side.
I've done a bunch of the T/C's and that way has always worked well for me.
As Zug said "if" there's a difference it's tiny. What matters is that "you" do it the same each time.

Why are you changing the front? A taller one? Renegades have the Patridge style that I love so much,,
Or do you like that goofy bead?

I noticed the conflicting info too, lol.
I'm not a fan of the really wide front sight. For whatever reason I've always liked a smaller reference for my sights. For example, I prefer a .010" sight pin on my bow, rather than the very common .029" pin. Covers up too much at distance.
I'm also tired of tapping the front sight back and forth for different loads, my rear sight windage adjustment is stuck and no amount of soaking has helped. Been that way since I got the rifle.
Not PC at all, but I went with a Fiberoptic setup. The reference on the front sight is smaller and the rear sight has a ghost ring with a reference on each side. We'll see how I like it.
I got some time to mess with it last night. The new sight was quite a bit oversized in comparison to my stock sight, especially the thickness of the dovetail base. My stock sight base thickness measured .090" while the new one was .138". Lots of passes on the bottom of the new sight and had to make several passes on the sides too, but it is now in and centered. It took some firm tapping to get it to the center, so it shouldn't ever move on me.
Oh, and I measured the old and new front sights, they both had a taper. The were narrower on their left side (as they would sit on the rifle). It was only about a .010" taper.

Now I have an issue with the rear sight. It is my understanding that Renegades came with two rear sight hole spacings...an inch+ on the very early barrels and then .835" on all the rest. The new rear sight I have is .835" spacing, yet it is somewhere between .005" to .008" too wide for the tapped holes in my barrel.
It holds very firmly with just one screw and would probably be fine with some Loctite, but I think I'm just going to slot the hole in the sight a bit to get the second screw to go in.
It's always something...

 

[necchi]

Yea, I've run into that rear hole spacing issue too. I've found that just one screw does hold securely,, but it is nice when both fit.
Still have the original Renegade rear?

 

[M. De Land]

I noticed the conflicting info too, lol.
I'm not a fan of the really wide front sight. For whatever reason I've always liked a smaller reference for my sights. For example, I prefer a .010" sight pin on my bow, rather than the very common .029" pin. Covers up too much at distance.
I'm also tired of tapping the front sight back and forth for different loads, my rear sight windage adjustment is stuck and no amount of soaking has helped. Been that way since I got the rifle.
Not PC at all, but I went with a Fiberoptic setup. The reference on the front sight is smaller and the rear sight has a ghost ring with a reference on each side. We'll see how I like it.
I got some time to mess with it last night. The new sight was quite a bit oversized in comparison to my stock sight, especially the thickness of the dovetail base. My stock sight base thickness measured .090" while the new one was .138". Lots of passes on the bottom of the new sight and had to make several passes on the sides too, but it is now in and centered. It took some firm tapping to get it to the center, so it shouldn't ever move on me.
Oh, and I measured the old and new front sights, they both had a taper. The were narrower on their left side (as they would sit on the rifle). It was only about a .010" taper.

Now I have an issue with the rear sight. It is my understanding that Renegades came with two rear sight hole spacings...an inch+ on the very early barrels and then .835" on all the rest. The new rear sight I have is .835" spacing, yet it is somewhere between .005" to .008" too wide for the tapped holes in my barrel.
It holds very firmly with just one screw and would probably be fine with some Loctite, but I think I'm just going to slot the hole in the sight a bit to get the second screw to go in.
It's always something...

I've used the elongated slot trick a number of times to line up slightly miss matched sight base holes. I've seen some tang sights come from the factory with that feature on them. Just elongate the hole into a short slot and countersink the elongation in a mill. Touch up blue and it will look professional.
.090 is a common dovetail slot depth for barrels as many sight blades will have a shoulder above the male base to fit as well. The sight male should simultaneously make contact on the bottom and angled slot sides along with the underside of the sight shoulder on barrel outside diameter. If the barrel is thinner than normal the slot will need to be cut shallower. There should be at least .050 of steel left at the bottom of any drilled barrel holes or dovetail slots to the groove diameter of the bore, for pressure safety.

 

[renegadehunter]

Yea, I've run into that rear hole spacing issue too. I've found that just one screw does hold securely,, but it is nice when both fit.
Still have the original Renegade rear?

Yes I have it, I'm going to hang onto it.

I got the new one put on this weekend by slotting the hole. I've always really liked a peep sight and look forward to sighting it in at the end of this week.