Remnant embers?

[MarineCorporal]

I've been re-enacting for some time, though not with caplock Springfields, but having gained some experience with black powder... I am somewhat alarmed how quick the Civil War re-enactors are to cast the weapon around and begin pouring the next cartridge, so soon after the initial discharge.
I would imagine, the odds of a remaining paper ember igniting the next charge are considerable.
Luckily 2f seems to be stable enough for that not to be the case.

That being said I accept the risks when I load my Brown Bess according to the manual with cartridges. But pouring powder down a smoking barrel so soon after the shot in the case of the percussion cap muskets seems a bit risky to me.

Again I'm glad I'm wrong but I could use some reassurance that discharges like that are rare.

 

[Shooey]

I always run a damp patch between shots just for that reason. But I'm target shooting and am not rushed for time, or reinacting a battle.

I suppose on the battlefield you have to weigh the risk of a smoldering ember igniting your powder with the risk of someone else shooting you. I'm not a reinactor maybe someone else smarter than me will chime in.

 

[Ken Cormier]

IMHO I do believe that IF your gunne barrel is so flowed that it MIGHT hold and I mean MIGHT hold a ember. Is really minute if it was any more than that. The events would not allow it for SAFETY reasons . It has been done that what for many years and if it had been a problem the practice of doing it would have been stoped. As with any fire arm it is a necessity that SAFETY FIRST is always first.
As your Mother always said if your friends are going to jump of the bridge are you?' :idunno:

 

[Rifleman1776]

IF your gunne barrel is so flowed

Huh? What is a flowed barrel?

for the OP question: The possibility does exist, especially in a rapid reloading situation. Do not hold your head over the muzzle. And, I assume you are not using a projectile. If ignited the result would be a big scary 'woosh'. For range or hunting situations, I always swab between every shot.

 

[coloradoclyde]

While such a thing is certainly possible it has proven to be a statistical improbability.
Otherwise there would be hundreds or even thousands of cases every year.
With that being said; I would still follow proper safety protocols.

That being said I accept the risks when I load my Brown Bess according to the manual with cartridges. But pouring powder down a smoking barrel so soon after the shot in the case of the percussion cap muskets seems a bit risky to me.

In this case what makes a flintlock musket different than percussion?

I hope you are not saying that you are pouring powder from a flask down the barrel! :shocked2:

 

[lyman1903]

IF your gunne barrel is so flowed

Huh? What is a flowed barrel?

for the OP question: The possibility does exist, especially in a rapid reloading situation. Do not hold your head over the muzzle. And, I assume you are not using a projectile. If ignited the result would be a big scary 'woosh'. For range or hunting situations, I always swab between every shot.

betting spell check got him, I would imagine he meant to type fouled,

just a WAG on my part tho, and I'm still learning some stuff

 

[54ball]

It can happen although it's much more likely in cannon and when those are loaded improperly, such as rapid fire.

Now it's my opinion that the instance of a cook off with a musket is again due to improper loading, such as the shooter loads a portion of the cartridge with or under the powder charge. This leaves a portion of the paper in the breech that could smolder. Very dry weather also may play a part in a very hot barrel. So do not be sloppy with tearing and pouring the charge.

So what if it does go off? If the manual of arms is followed, The worst that can happen is the fingers being singed. If the musket is properly cast about the cook off will vent away from the shooter and the line.

If the manual of arms is followed while ramming, the fingers should be out of the way when the rammer seats the charge, the rammer is pretty much thrown quickly down the bore and never grasped with a closed fist.

If you pay close attention to the manual of arms and follow it, there should be no severe injury or loss of digits.

 

[Rifleman1776]

It can happen

Yes, it can. I observed it once with a single shot ml pistol. Fortunately, the shooter followed rules and his muzzle was pointed in a safe direction. Loaded with ball, btw.

 

[longcruise]

Wonder if firing blanks might up the odds?

 

[Many Klatch]

The few battle reenactments that I have attended did not allow putting either the paper cartridge or the ramrod down the barrel. The Bess was primed from the cartridge, the rest of the powder was dumped in the barrel and Poof, load another. There were no embers in the barrel from a still burning cartridge.

 

[Hans74]

I never had this problem with the ML rifles but I have had a wood splinter smoldering in a black powder cartridge case when I extracted it from the rifle. I put it in the cartridge box neck up and reached for another round and shot it. Putting this empty case in the box the previous case still had smoke coming out. Turning it upside down and tapping it on the bench a glowing wood splinter came out. It must have come from the mill or maybe from the charcoal grindings who knows. If that charge was in a ML it would have been a problem maybe setting off my horn.

 

[Wes/Tex]

It can happen

Yes, it can. I observed it once with a single shot ml pistol. Fortunately, the shooter followed rules and his muzzle was pointed in a safe direction. Loaded with ball, btw.

I confessed in another area that it's happened to me twice in the 50 odd years I"ve played this game. Both times it took all the hair from my chin to into my hairline because I was holding the muzzle too vertically. Bad smell, bad look real funny for those around me. Always be careful it can happen! I've never dry-balled or stuck a brush in the bore but this is how I made up for it! :rotf:

 

[MarineCorporal]

In this case what makes a flintlock musket different than percussion?

:

I distinguish the two because the manuals for percussions and firelocks are different. The Springfield percussion musket had a firing manual in which you would immediately after firing, flip the weapon down and cast it on the ground and begin pouring down the new charge. Flintlocks have a grace period in which you are priming first. Giving the barrel 10-15 seconds to cool down. Priming first with muskets of military design is far safer due to the half cock notch. In fact the only negligent discharge Ive seen with a flintlock musket had been from embers. The person in question was ramming down a cartridge made with too thin of a paper. Therefore it tore upon firing and parts of it remained at the breech smoldering. We both examined the lock and the frizzen remained closed on the pan. The priming powder had burned up inside a closed pan.

 

[MarineCorporal]

If the manual of arms is followed while ramming, the fingers should be out of the way when the rammer seats the charge, the rammer is pretty much thrown quickly down the bore and never grasped with a closed fist.

I manned a naval piece once as a loader (rammer). The very first thing I was told was which way to point the thumbs in case of a cook off while ramming.
We even tested the flying rammer myth with muskets. An iron rammer flew about 8-10yds with very little speed.
The thing I'm worried about is the split second in which I am placing the ball into the muzzle. The paper of the cartridge makes a pretty tight fit even with .04 windage (barrel to ball) Couple that with fouling and with each ramming motion you are actually scraping down the charcoal residue off the bore and down towards the breech (in effect cleaning the bore) And its generally a laborious effort. Unless ofcourse you believe that the Brown Bess was loaded with a .66-69 cal ball. Some of the captured French ammo could be "tap loaded" ( :bull: ) down.

Anyways,
I'd like to thank everyone for their thoughts.

 

[Artificer]

For WBTS reenacting, it was a standard safety rule amoung Federal and Confederate Reenactors that nothing but powder was/is allowed down the barrels since the early 1980's for sure and may or probably before that. I know it was that way then for folks doing living histories on National Park Property.

When I first began doing WBTS reenacting in 1980, they still allowed us to throw the paper cartridge down the bore AS LONG AS there was no staple or anything solid on or with it. Then a year or two later during a Tactical or Civil War period "War Game" the day before the reenactment of Balls Bluff in Southern Maryland, one of the smoldering cartridge papers was shot out of a musket and set the super dry grass on fire. We stopped the tactical and many of us ran to stamp out the fire and used blankets to put the fire out before it got out of control. Then we went back to the tactical. The next day no one was allowed to have anything but powder in their bores during the reenactment and the dry grass was not set on fire.

After that incident, NO ONE was allowed to put anything down the bore except for powder at least here in the East, from the Carolinas up through at least Pennsylvania!!!

The "Nine Count Loading Manual" called for loading the barrel before priming with a cap. So that's the way we did it with blank rounds. The chances of the powder going off in the bore were extremely thin and though the word "rare" is way overused, it was really a rare incident when the powder was set off by embers in the barrel. Angling the bore away from one's face and being careful to pour powder from the paper cartridge at an angle to the bore ensured the powder in the blank cartridge was never set off while the reenactor's hands were near the barrel. The very few times the powder cooked off in the barrel happened in 8 years of very active reenacting here in the East, there was never a case where the powder was ignited until after the paper cartridge was discarded and the man's hand was away from the muzzle.

The funny thing for me was the worst thing that happened to me with a Brown Bess was during a "Show Battle Reenactment" outside the National Archives and on Pennsylvania avenue on the 4th of July in the early 2,000's. The temperature was close to 100 degrees and the asphalt on Pennsylvania Avenue we were standing/fighting on was between 110 and 120 degrees. They allowed us to do "The Highland Drill" or Highland Skirmish drill. That meant we advanced in small groups, fired at will and knelt down on one knee to reload.

HOWEVER, the first time I put my knee that was not covered by kilt or bag hose - down on the hot pavement, I did NOT do that again. GRIN. After that I just crouched. The pavement was HOT even through the soles of our period shoes.

As we loaded and fired very quickly, the barrels heated up so much that it burnt the skin off our fingers and hands and stuck to the barrel. It was a real PITA to clean that burnt skin off my barrel in the 6 or 7 places I "left" my burnt skin on it. Grin.

Gus

 

[MarineCorporal]

The grass detail is absolutely spot on. You can read about the "fog of war" on the 18th century battlefield that was a result of both the grass/vegetation set on fire by the wadding and the blackpowder clouds that wouldn't lift on cold days.
Its also the reason Royal Marines were not allowed to fire from the fighting tops. The tops were located just behind the maintops and a wind blowing the smoldering wadding was likely to land into the canvas and set the sails on fire.

I have noticed some of the veteran reenactors wearing a leather glove on the left hand, might have to take up the practice myself.
My mistake this year was heading out to do a street battle with a slight drizzle coming down and not treating the barrel with a coating of something oily. Very few misfires out of everyone that participated. I was impressed to see everyone shielding the locks from the rain too. Unfortunately I came away from it with a heavily corroded barrel that took steel wool to scrape off.
Next time I intend on covering the barrel with a thin film of protective oils.

On an interesting note.... it turns out that the barrels and locks would get so hot during the firefights back then that a sergeant would usually go up and down the ranks with a canteen filled with soapy water. This would be poured down the fouled barrel and over the lock and would evaporate in a matter of seconds.

 

[Walks with fire]

Swabbing every shot is a very good habit to have. What can happen has and does.

Even if I swab every shot I still worry about an ember in the patent breech area of my rifles.

I also thought that unless it was in very dry conditions a smoldering patch would not start a grass fire but just this fall at the range one of my smoldering patches (lubed with mink oil) started the grass in front of the bench burning. It wasn't really dry conditions but the wind was blowing about 10 mph. It didn't get out of control but it was an eye opener.

 

[Artificer]

The grass detail is absolutely spot on. You can read about the "fog of war" on the 18th century battlefield that was a result of both the grass/vegetation set on fire by the wadding and the blackpowder clouds that wouldn't lift on cold days.
Its also the reason Royal Marines were not allowed to fire from the fighting tops. The tops were located just behind the maintops and a wind blowing the smoldering wadding was likely to land into the canvas and set the sails on fire.

Have to admit that is something I had not run across before. I guess I always assumed Continental Marines did it after the fashion of British Marines, but in fact it may have been copying French Marines.

"Nelson never placed musketry in his tops; he had a strong dislike to the practice; not merely because it endangered setting fire to the sails, but also because it is a murderous sort of warfare, by which individuals may suffer, and a commander now and then be picked off; but which he believed never can decide the fate of a general engagement. Admiral Nelson was killed, receiving a fatal wound from a musket ball fired by a French sharpshooter [Actually a French Marine] in Redoubtable's mizzen fighting top."
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/sail-tactics3.htm

On an interesting note.... it turns out that the barrels and locks would get so hot during the firefights back then that a sergeant would usually go up and down the ranks with a canteen filled with soapy water. This would be poured down the fouled barrel and over the lock and would evaporate in a matter of seconds.

That would have been GREAT to have that hot July 4th day in front of the National Archives. :thumbsup:

Gus