REALS CONICAL QUESTION ON LEAD HARDNESS?

[lonewolf5347]

I would think the harder the lead the less chance to mushroom on game if bone is hit,and using higher speed in m/l less chance to lead the barrel.I have tried his 10 BHN and have no problem in loading them down the barrel..
Below is the guy statement who cast them between the two choices soft or hard REALS



These hard REALS should leave you two holes, and assuming you go with your hunting (upper) load, and don't hit serious bone (if you are somone who subscribes to the "break both shoulders" school of thought, I would suggest our minie instead of the REAL or any other bullet style) you will be fine.

This BHN 10 REAL should completely penetrate, and leave an exit wound at the yardages you list and at the 90 grain load. Possibly even at the 80 grain load. My Hawken is listed for 90 max as well, but the difference in velocity has hit the law of diminishing returns by then (more powder for not much more umph).

The rifling is correct in both your rifles for the R.E.A.L.

The main difference in the two 50 cal REALS we make is that the pure lead soft one will mushroom out substantially on impact, and though you will get better than round ball penetration, you might hit one shoulder or nick a rib and a soft pure lead slug will DEFINITELY mushroom out a bit at that moment, starting to careen off target. Longer bullets can also have this problem, due to deflection altering their course.

Though it will tear up the medium through which it passes, the frontal resistance will stop the slug FAST, especially if it encounters another rib on the way out (your one-hole experience, likely). Worst of all, it makes a heart hit into a possible one lung hit if the angle is not good, again making it a one-hole, deer still running for a mile (or 2), nightmare tracking experience.

These harder slugs will not deform as easily, making an exit hole almost 70% more possible in a whitetail deer. They retain their weight well also, as they will not expand and fragment as easily (a round ball in pure lead can splatter flat open when it hits a solid bone).

 

[musketman]

This BHN 10 REAL should completely penetrate, and leave an exit wound at the yardages you list and at the 90 grain load.

For those who don't know what BHN is...

BHN, What Does It Stand For, And What Does It Mean To Shooters/Handloaders?

Brinnell Harness Number, or BHN as it is abbreviated, is a relative hardness scale. The numbers are derived from the load bearing ability of of a sample in terms of Kilograms (Kg) supported by one square millimeter (mm

 

[tommy b]

MM,
Good info, especially the listing. Thanks.

 

[Deadeye]

I designed a .50 bullet along the lines of an LBT bullet with a large flat point wighting 500 grs. cast of pure lead.
We have shot many groups of 4" at 200 yds. with 90 grs. 2F.
We've recovered many bullets at 230 yds. in soft dirt that were all about the size of a .50 cent piece. Many deer and elk have ben killed with this bullet over the last few yrs.
but to my knowledge no one has ever recovered a bullet. They have always penetrated completely, killed well, even elk, whick are much more shock resistant than deer. I haven't tried any harder alloy but can't imagine it would be better.

 

[lonewolf5347]

musketman what is your views on the hard 10 BHN REALS when it comes to deer hunting would the 5 BHN or 10 BHN make much difference in bullet performance? ::

 

With a muzzleloader, you are held to relatively soft bullets, so they will obturate and fill the rifling from the explosion of powder behind them. Make them too hard (BRN of 10/11 is close to WW) and they won't expand to take the rifling. This will make them inaccurate & foul the bore with powder fouling because they won't be able to scrape it all out with them, each shot. As well, the harder the alloy, the larger the mould will cast them, to the point, in a bullet like the REAL, you may not be able to load it at all. This bullet is designed to be pure lead, to take advantage of obturation, to fill the rifling.
Daryl

 

[Ironwood]

Lonewolf... I cast my REAL bullets from pure lead. I've only shot one Texas Whitetail doe with the bullet. I think I posted the results on a forum of this website. I didn't get an exit with the REAL. However, the bullet did ricochet and went through about 3 feet of whitetail before coming to a rest just under the skin on the rear portion of the left side ham. The bullet entered just behind the right hand shoulder My mold cast a pure lead bullet of about 313-315 grains. The recovered bullet still weighs 303 grains. I was impressed with the performance of the 320 grain Lee REAL bullet.

 

[musketman]

musketman what is your views on the hard 10 BHN REALS when it comes to deer hunting would the 5 BHN or 10 BHN make much difference in bullet performance? ::

I really don't give too much thought about the hardness because of this reason alone, I shoot a .75 caliber musket...

I don't think an animal stands much of a chance when you blast a 3/4 inch hole through it, it's going to die...

As always, pure lead is best, 10 BHN REALS will shoot higher than 5 BHN REALS, 5 BHN being pure lead...

I think 10 BHN and higher would make more of a difference on minie-ball style bullets, because of the bullet's skirt design being critical for the projectile's performance...

REAL bullets, being flat based like the T/C Maxi Ball, must contract to fill the grooves and seal the bore when the trigger is pulled, I think harder lead will impead this contraction and allow gas pressure to pass by, resulting in loss of velocity at a givin charge...

 

You are correct, musketman- 10 brinell is getting too hard to obturate properly - that is, the bullet must shorten in length and increase in width, to fill the rifling- that is the design of the bullet. Bullets cast harder than pure lead, don't obturate properly. Hard Hollow based minnies, usually don't expand to fill, either, but will lose a chunk blown off at exit from the muzzle & generally keyhole- ried them back in the 70's. Lead that's harder lead than pure lead, is more brittle & less ductile.
: If the bullet doesn't fill the grouves, the lube isn't in contact with the bottom of the grouves and the barrel will foul badly from the powder as well as have lead streaks & also be innacurate as all get out.
: As well, WW shoots just fine in the smooth bores, and a .600 to .735 ball doesn't need to expand to kill. They will also work in large bored rifles. They're big enough as they are & don't require expansion odestroy tissue. They had a huge shock wave ahead of them, that causes large holes thorugh the solft tissues, otherwise a .70 all couldn't casue a 5" hole through the lungs. A barely expanded .684 ball will- even at 100yds.
: A blunt profile in the bullet, like the great plains bullets are best for the slug shooters. The flat nose is a much better killer than pointed ones. The slight angled nose of the REAL can be called flat for all intents and purposes.
Daryl

 

[jtmattison]

With a muzzleloader, you are held to relatively soft bullets, so they will obturate and fill the rifling from the explosion of powder behind them. Make them too hard (BRN of 10/11 is close to WW) and they won't expand to take the rifling. This will make them inaccurate & foul the bore with powder fouling because they won't be able to scrape it all out with them, each shot. As well, the harder the alloy, the larger the mould will cast them, to the point, in a bullet like the REAL, you may not be able to load it at all. This bullet is designed to be pure lead, to take advantage of obturation, to fill the rifling.
Daryl

What daryl has said here is 100% true. I had some 320 grain REAL's given to me that were cast with wheel weights and I couldn't even get them in the muzzle of my rifle.
I cast my own REAL's out of pure lead and they load like butter.

Huntin

 

[cayugad]

Lonewolf, as you know I shoot a lot of REALs. In fact I target shoot and hunt with them. I always cast from pure lead.

I would not worry about over expansion with even the 5 BHN rated REALs. That is all I cast. I have shot a lot of deer with them as have my friends who also shoot my projectiles. We have always got pass through with the soft REALs. I can not say this for round ball.

I also do not feel the soft REALs over expand at all. In fact just the opposite. This target shows a recovered 5 BHN 533 grain conical I am currently working a load up with, that my dog was kind enough to recover and bring back after digging it out of the wood backstop at my range and it shows little if no expansion. I would have throught going through a target stapled to a piece of cardboard, on a wood backstop and then into a wood bunker where it was recovered, would have expanded more.

 

[musketman]

I would have throught going through a target stapled to a piece of cardboard, on a wood backstop and then into a wood bunker where it was recovered, would have expanded more.

It does, however... It's a little known fact that lead bullets revert back to their cylinder shape when coming in contact with a dog's toe nails...

Just being silly...

That's some fine shootin you did there...

 

I have a .451 barrel made to drop in a T.C. Renegade stock.
I sized some .457 hard cast bullets for the 45-70 down to .452 and tried to load them in the .451 barrel ONCE only.
It's a gross understatement to say it was HARD to force it down bore.
I'll stick to pure lead for muzzle guns.

 

Maxiball your right, in another posting I had talked about how I took commercially casted Bullets for a 45/70 and sized them down to .454 then down to .452 and because of the tin in the lead, the bullet" sprung back" to .453 and were a #%&!@*& to cram down the barrel.

 

The idea was sound, but you need pure lead or close to it. I have done the same thing, testing slugs in fast twist barrels, as well as loading .458 bullets, after swaging down for use in .45 pistols, both ACP and Colt.
; If you swage to .451 in two or three steps, and use pure lead, they load beautifully in the ML barrel. Hard lead won't expand(obturate) to fill the rifling, which is what you want and need.
; There are moulds available for the .45 pistol with bullets up to 335 or 340gr., perhaps not by Lyman or Lee, but they are available from LBT or others. These should come out close to 360gr. in pure lead, and make good conicals for game shooting, just as they did in the .45-90's and larger cased rounds. Note, Plain-based bullets will help expanson in the rifling and reduce leading.
Daryl