"REAL" Black powder?

[Frank Briggs]

I've got a TC Renegade caplock in .50 cal, and I'm still learning how to shoot it.

When I bought the rifle the only powder I could find was Pyrodex. I used that for the first half dozen trips to the range.

Click...BOOM!

The slow ignition made it hard to hit with.

Then, I bought a can of Triple Seven.

Now we're talking. Maybe I've learned how to load this thing, or maybe the 777 lights off faster, or maybe both. When I squeeze the trigger, it fires. And it doesn't stink.

Joy!

Now, I've found this forum and read for hours from people that seem to actualy know something.

And I notice that you guys are dead set in the idea that "Real" black powder is clearly better than the imitations.

Ok... but can somebody detail that for me?

Why is it better? I can get Goex 2f, but it's a hassle. I have to fill out a form and the only place that has it is 50 miles away. It's more expensive,too.

Can I expect faster ignition? Tighter groups? Easier cleanup? Better velocity? What?

I'm thinking that you guys have a reason for your opinion, but I really havn't seen it spelled out.

Help the noobie!

Thanks,

Frank

 

[silverfox]

It does everything you mention in your next to last sentence. Now go try some and throw the other stuff away.
Fox :thumbsup:

 

[bioprof]

You can add less fouling and fewer misfires too. I also just took up muzzleloading a couple of years ago and I had to learn the hard way.

 

[Wes/Tex]

As stated, real black powder does all the synthetics do and at a lower temp. Many of the shooters who use synthetic powders are fed the old saw about how black powder is corrosive and the synthetic aren't. Don't fall for that, the synthetics will cause chloride pitting if not cleaned up quickly...this is a fine pitting that will appear as soft, non-shiny surface in the bore. ALL powder needs to be cleaned after use...ALL powder! If you have to clean each time, why not use the real thing?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Many of us finally grew up and became proud shooters of rock locks. The only powder that works in flinters is real Black Powder. We can argue all year about which is better, FFg or FFFg, but either way, BP is easier to ignite, you don't get misfires, you get fine accuracy, good control when loading up or down to zero a load for a gun, and its just as easy to clean, if not more so. Just soap and water and you are done. People complain about the sulfur smell, but it is really not all that bad. I have cleaned my guns in the kitchen sink, and once I give the barrels a good flush, and then dispose of the dirty water, the smell goes down the drain with the dirty water. You can clean the barrel out in your yard, or in the garage with a bucket of water, if the lady of your house just refuses to allow you into "Her " kitchen, so its just no big deal.


I am very concerned about all the lies that are told buyers of the new fangled kind of guns that begin with in, and end with --nes. We hear the folks are told you don't have to clean the gun, that the substitute powders are not corrosive, that they shoot faster, or give more velocity, and other lies. The substitute are all corrosive, and you do have to clean the gun daily after use. Pressures can get out of hand with them, but they can't provide any real increases in velocity if the same loads, and same projectiles are used in the same gun, one shot with BP, and the other a substitute. If you do get extra velocity, you usually pay the price of having larger groups, and poorer accuracy.

Most of all, I think different people have different ideas on what constitutes a fast ignition time. As a rocklocker, I am used to people expecting there to be a delay between the ignition of the powder in my flashpan, and the main charge going off. They are always surprise when they go off as one! I just watched that silly presentation by a gun collector shooting a musket at a reduced sized Red Barn on the A &E Network, on Wild West Tech. This is the episode about trick shot artists of the old and new days. In the scene, the man fills the pan of his lock with priming powder and covers the touchhole( vent) into the barrel. When he shoots, you can see the muzzle drop, and he actually bounces his ball off the ground a couple of inches in front of the wooden target, and the ball then ricochetes into the bottom of the target. There is a substantial time delay between the priming powder going off, and the main charge firing, but the man talks like this is what was to be expected when shooting the old guns. Nothing could be further from the truth.

With percussion guns, like yours, if you use a good cap, clear the flashchannel before loading by firing a couple of caps off to burn out any oil or grease that may be in that channel, and then dry the barrel with a clean patch before loading, there should be no delay in the gun going off. It should be as fast as firing a cartridge rifle. If you don't do these things in preparation of firing, you can get a slight delay in ignition that varies from shot to shot, and you might even get a misfire, if there is enough gunk in the flashchannel to keep flame from reaching powder. that can happen regardless of the powder you choose to use.

 

[mbw907]

I shoot Pyrodex, triple seven, and real black powder. When I started out, there was no substitutes for the real thing. When pyrodex came out, I bought a bunch of it, and the same thing whenever Triple Seven came out. The reason for this is misled conceptions that I got from reading hunting magazines. Those guys had to have been given good compensation for their "enlightening" reviews. I have to agree that real bp is better, but you gotta use what you got, so I use it all. At least until it is all gone and I can replace it. :haha:

 

[squirejohn]

With your TC caplock you shouldn't experience delayed ignition with substitute BP providing the flash channel is clear of fouling, oil etc., and you have good caps and nipple. In general substitue BP (Prodex)is less fouling but more corrosive.

 

[Legionair]

I used Pyrodex and 777 before Goex.

Pyrodex caused a "tarish" fouling, so I switched.
777 worked O.K., but have heard of a hard crud ring being formed between charge and ball.

When I finally moved to flint, I went to Goex. No tar, no hesitation or misfires.

I'm satisfied....

Legion

 

[shmrck1]

I can get Goex 2f, but it's a hassle. I have to fill out a form and the only place that has it is 50 miles away. It's more expensive,too.

Frank,
I get 3fff Goex for between $10.50
and $12. If your getting Pyrodex,777 or any of the
other B/P subs for less than that you must really
know somebody well. When I see Pyrodex in the
local shops it usually runs around $18.50+ or -,
with 777 running 4 or $5 more.
snake-eyes :hmm:

 

[Stony]

Ok... but can somebody detail that for me?

Why is it better? I can get Goex 2f, but it's a hassle. I have to fill out a form and the only place that has it is 50 miles away. It's more expensive,too.

Can I expect faster ignition? Tighter groups? Easier cleanup? Better velocity? What?

Before Pyrodex, there was no hotshot nipple or special nipples needed to insure the main charge would go off. There were no magnum caps needed as well. As Paul mentioned, BP appears to be the only powder for flintlocks. A properly tuned and loaded flintlock can be as "fast" as any caplock.

Tighter groups is more the shooter than the powder. That's part of the muzzleloading experience. Everytime you load a muzzleloader, you're custom handloading. Once you find the load your gun likes best, all you have to do is duplicate it again and again. Then it's up to you to do your part.

Hot soapy water, can't get easier than that. I like to use 91% rubbing alcohol with a little witch hazel mixed in for my cleaning solutation but that's me. You may choose something different. And just for the record, BP fouling it self is not corrosive. It draws moisture out of the air like a sponge which can cause rust. Pyrodex is corrosive all by itself.

While it may be true that once you shoot pyrodex a few times, your fouling doesn't get any worse, if you're hunting, you probably will not reach that point. If you're at the range, just run a damp patch every 5, 6, 7, shots. No real big deal.

Where I live, I have to drive about 45 minutes and pay $1.20 in tolls to get Goex. Because of my state's screw-up gun laws I have to show my gun card and sign a list too. And on top of that, the store has a 3 pound per day limit. If you have been reading here, you know there are lots of places you can order powder for about $10 - $12 a pound, in 5 to 25 pound lots and pay a whole $20 haz-mat fee. As soon as I can scrap up the money, I plan to get 25 pounds that way as well.

So there you have it, an answer in detail. Hope it helps.

 

[Frank Briggs]

Wow!

Thanks for the replies, guys!

I guess I need to do the deal and drive on over to the other side of Houston and pay $20.00 for a pound.

My goofy schedule has me off work on mondays so I'm going to the range today.

Maybe I can post up my very first "Real" black powder target tonight.

Thanks!

Frank

 

[FTW]

Did you buy the renegade that Carters country had a few weeks ago?I see your group on one of there targets.Please tell me where you found black powder around Houston.I like 777 in my caplocks,however over 70 grs. in my 54 burns the patches up,60 grs. in the 50.I have 1 package of TC prelubed .018 pillow ticking that will stand 100 grs. in the 58.My flintlock causes me to drive to cabelas in Buda for Goex.

 

[Frank Briggs]

The Bass Pro Shop in Katy has Goex.

They have it put up in the back so you have to ask for it.

I found out when I asked them why nobody had any. I should have bought a can while I was there.

The guy behind the counter claimed that Houston has a city ordanance concerning the sale of explosives. Sounds believable to me.

Katy is quite a drive from my house here in the Woodlands.

No, my renegade came from The Possibles Shop online. They shiped it to me UPS. No questions asked, No forms filled out, No background check, nothing.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The two best places for buying BP that have been mentioned here are Graf & Sons, and Powder,inc. You can find links to both of them under member services at the top of the forum index. I don't see the point to buying just " one " Can of Black Powder, and paying all that money. But, then again, price is relative, and even the sutstitutes are very expensive. But, if you really shoot that ML of yours, buying 4-5 lbs. is not going to break the bank, and you will have a supply that will last you long enough to actually learn how to shoot that gun well.

 

[Snuffy]

The biggest difference going from 777 to real black is the need to almost double your cleaning patches inventory due to increased fouling and expect to get several less shots out of every jug - being 777 is more powerful than any real black - except Swiss FFF.

The rest is real easy - so enjoy the transition from subs to the real thing :nono: :nono:

 

[roundball]

I used to use Pyrodex RS in caplocks...switched to Flintlocks and real BP, went with Goex.

It is so fast, clean, and accurate that I rezeroed my caplocks with it...you can mail order Goex from many BP suppliers...costs about $10/lb, and with hazmat + shipping that'll spread across however many cans you order, but it'll still be cheaper than buying it locally.

Ideally, if you could buy a 25lb case, and/or split a case with someone, the delivered price of a can of Goex drops into the $10-$11 range delivered to your front porch.

I'd predict that if you ever shot a can of Goex, you'd never bother with substitute powders again

 

[Jon in MI]

Can I expect faster ignition? Tighter groups? Easier cleanup? Better velocity? What?

I've used 777, Goex and Swiss, the latter are both real BP and here is my .02. I only have a flinter and had to use 4F to prime and as a duplex in the main charge... 5 grains 4F and 70 grains 777. That load worked great! very fast easy cleanup and very accurate. Then I tried Goex, just about as accurate much dirtier but not as hard to clean and slightly faster. Then I tried Swiss and have never looked back! Cleaner that 777, faster than Goex and very accurate! that is all I buy now, mostally from the bulk websites for about $17 a pound delivered. I'm lucky that I have a sorta local place to buy from as well.

Jon

 

[Snuffy]

I found a friend in Schuetzen FFF. Seems to have softer fouling than Goex. I never could get Swiss FFF to work. Perhaps I should of purchased the FF instead.

Maybe I'll try that one next trip there to Kenochee Trading Post! :hmm: :hmm:

 

[TN.Frank]

I have almost a lb of Pyrodex P that I got in a swap with a pard that I'll use up in my caplocks but the only stuff that'll work in my flinters is the REAL DEAL black powder. I picked up a Lb at the only place in town that stocks it and it came to just a tad over $17 bucks with tax and all. Someday I'll find a few guys in the area that use real black and then we can go in on a group buy from Graf and Sons but until then the HazMat fee makes buying a 4 lb lot impractical. Personally, I LOVE the small of real black powder, guess I'm strange or something,LOL. :hmm:

 

[Frank Briggs]

OK, so I shot some real black powder this morning.

It sounds different. Black powder goes "BOOM" and 777 is more of a "CRACK".

I guess that 70 grains of BP is a little slower than 65 grains of 777

Ignition seems about the same. Both are pretty much instant. No misfires with either load (CCI#11 cap)

Cleanup? don't know yet. I shot both powders today and havn't cleaned the rifle yet.

Acuracy?

Here's two groups with Goex-

First is 70 gr Goex 2f with a .495 PRB and an .018 TC prelubed patch. Fired from the bench@ 50 yards

Next is 70 grains Goex 2f with a .490 PRB and the same TC .018 patch pre-lubed with bore butter

Last is my standard load of 65 grains 777 with a 0.495 PRB and .018 pre-lube TC patch

The weather was cool and sunny, but there was a pretty good breeze blowing.

All three targets were at 50 yards.

I see some trigger jerking going on here, but that .495 BP target has a pretty nice ragged hole in it.

Oddly, the black powder seems to hit to the left of where the 777 hits.

It sure looks to me like the BP just might prove to be more acurate when I get a load worked up.

Now I need to go clean my rifle.

SEEYA!

Frank