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question patchs
- Thread starter al v
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
That sounds like a pretty hot powder load for a .010 thick patch to handle but if it's working, who am I to say something else might work better?
Anyway, if you have a way of measuring things that reads in the thousandths and a cloth store near you, you could always go there and look for any tight weave cotton or linen cloth to make your own patches.
Your .54 caliber rifle will like a patch that is about 1 3/8 in diameter or 1 3/8 X 1 3/8 square. (They both load and shoot the same).
A little "Bore Butter" or better yet, some of Stumpkillers patch lube (the formula is here on the Forum) to lubricate the cloth and your in business.
Places like Harbor Freight sell electronic readout calipers which can measure thicknesses, inside widths and diameters and depths for about $20.
These work well if the battery is fresh and they are accurate to less than one thousandths of an inch.
As for your patch thickness, I'm sure a patch that thin makes loading the roundball easy but I really doubt that it is giving you all the accuracy that your gun can deliver.
Thin patches like .010 are good for low power pistol loads but in my experience, they usually are burned away or torn apart as the gun fires.
Either of these things will ruin accuracy.
Just something to think about. :thumbsup:
Anyway, if you have a way of measuring things that reads in the thousandths and a cloth store near you, you could always go there and look for any tight weave cotton or linen cloth to make your own patches.
Your .54 caliber rifle will like a patch that is about 1 3/8 in diameter or 1 3/8 X 1 3/8 square. (They both load and shoot the same).
A little "Bore Butter" or better yet, some of Stumpkillers patch lube (the formula is here on the Forum) to lubricate the cloth and your in business.
Places like Harbor Freight sell electronic readout calipers which can measure thicknesses, inside widths and diameters and depths for about $20.
These work well if the battery is fresh and they are accurate to less than one thousandths of an inch.
As for your patch thickness, I'm sure a patch that thin makes loading the roundball easy but I really doubt that it is giving you all the accuracy that your gun can deliver.
Thin patches like .010 are good for low power pistol loads but in my experience, they usually are burned away or torn apart as the gun fires.
Either of these things will ruin accuracy.
Just something to think about. :thumbsup:
I am new to black powder as well.
While I was waiting for my rifle to arrive I went around different places looking for material that was cotton and the right thickness. I have a set of calipers, so I went to a used clothes store and found some shorts that looked good for cutting up. I got about 1000 patches out of that $2.00 pair of shorts. I then made up some lube from lard and beeswax and have been shooting this combination with good success. Really easy and dirt cheap.
I don't know why people would buy patches.
While I was waiting for my rifle to arrive I went around different places looking for material that was cotton and the right thickness. I have a set of calipers, so I went to a used clothes store and found some shorts that looked good for cutting up. I got about 1000 patches out of that $2.00 pair of shorts. I then made up some lube from lard and beeswax and have been shooting this combination with good success. Really easy and dirt cheap.
I don't know why people would buy patches.
paulvallandigham
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I have to agree with you, Jim. I don't recommend patches that thin for .50 and larger caliber RBs.
I think his patches are tearing and burning up. He should find pieces in front of his muzzle, and down wind, about 25-30 feet in front of the muzzle. He should use colored( dyed) fabric so he can SEE them easier on the ground/grass/weeds. And, having someone else stand behind the shooter and up wind of him to look for the spent patches usually will result in finding the patches quicker.
If you don't know how to read the wind, Take some dried grass, or dirt, stand up, and hold your hand out away from you, and drop the stuff. The wind will move it in a direction and speed similar to what will happen to the spent patches, except the patch will follow the ball down range until its drag factor stops the forward movement.
I think his patches are tearing and burning up. He should find pieces in front of his muzzle, and down wind, about 25-30 feet in front of the muzzle. He should use colored( dyed) fabric so he can SEE them easier on the ground/grass/weeds. And, having someone else stand behind the shooter and up wind of him to look for the spent patches usually will result in finding the patches quicker.
If you don't know how to read the wind, Take some dried grass, or dirt, stand up, and hold your hand out away from you, and drop the stuff. The wind will move it in a direction and speed similar to what will happen to the spent patches, except the patch will follow the ball down range until its drag factor stops the forward movement.
I agree, you're probably blowing those patches in to confetti. My .58 starts to blow patches with charges at and above 80gr of FFg, and that's still using a .020 patch. I had to go to a .025 canvas patch to keep them intact wihtout using some sort of wad.
I like to keep things simple, and easy to load, so I just recently decided to stop using more than 70gr of FFg for both target and hunting purposes. Sixty grains of FFg just killed a deer dead with my .58, so I'm going to stop worrying about it. :grin:
I like to keep things simple, and easy to load, so I just recently decided to stop using more than 70gr of FFg for both target and hunting purposes. Sixty grains of FFg just killed a deer dead with my .58, so I'm going to stop worrying about it. :grin:
Grullaguy said:
Yep. But who reads the original question? :grin:
edit: OK, I'll try to add something useful. As others have suggested, you might want to try cutting your patches at the muzzle. Buy a suitable material and lube up a bunch. That is the preferred method for many and much less expensive than buying commercially made pre-cut and pre-lubed patches.
Most of the major suppliers, like those who advertise here, can supply you with whatever you want.
When I first read the original post, I thought oldman22 was talking about running out of .010 pre-lubed patches.
I did not think about his comments being about the patches disappearing after they were fired but, on rereading the post I can see how that may have been what he was talking about.
It still isn't clear to me but, assuming he is speaking of the patches blowing into fine bits that cannot be found, in addition to the thin patches and large powder loads he's using I'll toss another comment into the fire.
Although one of our members staunchly disagrees with me, I have had some very bad luck using pre-lubed patches, even though they were of a thickness that should have worked well.
I had bought some very old pre-lubed patches that had obviously (from the condition of the package) been hanging on the gunshops shelf for a long time.
When I shot these patches there wasn't enough left of them to find pieces larger than 1/4 inch, many of them consisting of nothing but the edges of the patch which had been ahead of the ball.
On looking into it, I found several articles which maintained that after a long time, the lubrication used can cause the cotton fibers to break down and loose their strength.
NAPA water soluble oils were among the worst lubes to attack the cotton fibers.
I'm sure the pre-lubed patches that failed me were not lubed with the NAPA oil but I have no doubt that their lube combined with age made them useless.
I did not think about his comments being about the patches disappearing after they were fired but, on rereading the post I can see how that may have been what he was talking about.
It still isn't clear to me but, assuming he is speaking of the patches blowing into fine bits that cannot be found, in addition to the thin patches and large powder loads he's using I'll toss another comment into the fire.
Although one of our members staunchly disagrees with me, I have had some very bad luck using pre-lubed patches, even though they were of a thickness that should have worked well.
I had bought some very old pre-lubed patches that had obviously (from the condition of the package) been hanging on the gunshops shelf for a long time.
When I shot these patches there wasn't enough left of them to find pieces larger than 1/4 inch, many of them consisting of nothing but the edges of the patch which had been ahead of the ball.
On looking into it, I found several articles which maintained that after a long time, the lubrication used can cause the cotton fibers to break down and loose their strength.
NAPA water soluble oils were among the worst lubes to attack the cotton fibers.
I'm sure the pre-lubed patches that failed me were not lubed with the NAPA oil but I have no doubt that their lube combined with age made them useless.
OK, I guess it is a matter of the loose and conversational grammer used here, and on other forums, postings are easy to misinterpret.
I have never experienced patches blowing to bits and being 'unfindable'. I thought he was shopping for new patches. Oh, well.
I have never experienced patches blowing to bits and being 'unfindable'. I thought he was shopping for new patches. Oh, well.
Some .015 thick patches will be a good start to get the best out of your rifle.
The patchs must not only hold the ball and transmit the riflings rotation to it but they must also totally seal the hot powder gasses behind the ball.
The .010 thick patches you were using with your .530 balls make for a .550 diameter assembly.
While .550 sounds pretty big for a .540 diameter bore, the rifling in these guns ranges from .005 to .010 deep for most factory made guns.
If the bore is .540 diameter and you add in some .010 deep rifling on each side of the bore the diameter of the rifling grooves becomes .560.
That's why a .550 ball/patch diameter will not seal properly.
Going to a .015 thick patch the effective diameter of a patched .530 diameter ball becomes .560.
If your shooting one of the shallower grooved barrels like a Thompson Center or some CVA's with .005 deep rifling, that would work.
If your shooting a Lyman Plains Rifle with .010 deep rifling grooves even the .015 patch will be marginal.
That's one reason many of us use .018 thick patches.
As for the patch lube, any good lube will work.
Bore Butter is good, Mink Oil is good, even Ballistol seems to be good.
One of the best I've found is Stumpkillers Moose Juice, a mixture of water, alcohol, witch hazel, caster oil and some Murphys Oil Soap.
If your interested, look for it here:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/203261/
The patchs must not only hold the ball and transmit the riflings rotation to it but they must also totally seal the hot powder gasses behind the ball.
The .010 thick patches you were using with your .530 balls make for a .550 diameter assembly.
While .550 sounds pretty big for a .540 diameter bore, the rifling in these guns ranges from .005 to .010 deep for most factory made guns.
If the bore is .540 diameter and you add in some .010 deep rifling on each side of the bore the diameter of the rifling grooves becomes .560.
That's why a .550 ball/patch diameter will not seal properly.
Going to a .015 thick patch the effective diameter of a patched .530 diameter ball becomes .560.
If your shooting one of the shallower grooved barrels like a Thompson Center or some CVA's with .005 deep rifling, that would work.
If your shooting a Lyman Plains Rifle with .010 deep rifling grooves even the .015 patch will be marginal.
That's one reason many of us use .018 thick patches.
As for the patch lube, any good lube will work.
Bore Butter is good, Mink Oil is good, even Ballistol seems to be good.
One of the best I've found is Stumpkillers Moose Juice, a mixture of water, alcohol, witch hazel, caster oil and some Murphys Oil Soap.
If your interested, look for it here:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/203261/
Last edited by a moderator:
thank you and all for help.new ticking .18-.20, the groups are better,the .54 kicks harder without the blow by i guess.50yds 3 shots 2 touching. son shooting my 3 shots a little lower.it was cold and windy. need more range time to work up load understanding,distance, grouping.9 shots today.rb.80grns 2ff pyro.. oldman22 thanks again
From all of us, Your Welcome. but, helping folks is why we are here.
To really find out how your rifle is shooting, try to shoot it on a windless day.
Hot or cold doesn't make too much difference but a little wind can move a round ball up and down as well as side to side.
but, helping folks is why we are here.To really find out how your rifle is shooting, try to shoot it on a windless day.
Hot or cold doesn't make too much difference but a little wind can move a round ball up and down as well as side to side.
Greenjoytj
54 Cal.
90 gr of powder, those thin patches are likely being shredded to pieces too small to find.
I shoot .535" balls with .018+ to .019" patches that compress down to .009" to .0105" .
Yes it is very hard to start this load into the muzzle, but once its in I can rod it down smoothly and no slamming the ramrod onto the ball is necessary.
The big gain is in accuracy, the bigger ball and thicker patch greatly improved grouping of my shots.
The second thing I have done, is to start using a over powder felt wad.
I was using the wads dry and they worked great, tighter groups higher velocity too.
Now I'm trying them lubed soaked in melted mink oil grease and I've seen further velocity gains.
The hard starting in getting the ball into the bore is the sign of a good thing.
I need to apply one light tap with a small wooden mallet to start the PRB into the rifling.
I blame my round ball ended short starter It's just too painful to whack that hard enough to start the PRB into the bore.
I am going to make a flat toped short starter which should eliminate using the mallet.
I shoot .535" balls with .018+ to .019" patches that compress down to .009" to .0105" .
Yes it is very hard to start this load into the muzzle, but once its in I can rod it down smoothly and no slamming the ramrod onto the ball is necessary.
The big gain is in accuracy, the bigger ball and thicker patch greatly improved grouping of my shots.
The second thing I have done, is to start using a over powder felt wad.
I was using the wads dry and they worked great, tighter groups higher velocity too.
Now I'm trying them lubed soaked in melted mink oil grease and I've seen further velocity gains.
The hard starting in getting the ball into the bore is the sign of a good thing.
I need to apply one light tap with a small wooden mallet to start the PRB into the rifling.
I blame my round ball ended short starter It's just too painful to whack that hard enough to start the PRB into the bore.
I am going to make a flat toped short starter which should eliminate using the mallet.
