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Question on tightning breech plug.

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Crow#21957

50 Cal.
Joined
Dec 26, 2022
Messages
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Location
Mooreland Indiana
I've got a Rice barrel. I will call him but was hoping to not bother the man.The Barrel came with bp but not installed. I can screw it in by hand and it goes past last flat just a bit.It likes 3/4 of the width of a flat being lined up.Ive measured with calipers and bot measurements are the same. Bp threads and barrel flat inside whare riding starts. It also shows signs where it was bottomed out. Is it ok to go that extea 3/4flat to line it up. Thanks. It's 36 cal.
 
I removed the plug from my Rice barrel and that last 1/16" to get the index marks aligned took a lot of torque. 3/4" of a flat seems like an awful lot, but then again if you were only tightening by hand you should have a lot of room left. I would call Rice and ask them about it.
 
Here are instructions provided me by @SDSmlf that he borrowed from somewhere. I followed them and installed a breechplug in my T/C

BREECH PLUG INSTALLATION

Your safety, and the safety of the future users of your gun, depend on your correct fitting of the plug. Take time, use care, and follow these steps:

Prevent galling: any threaded steel plug can "seize" in a threaded steel hole. The problem is especially severe when installing a wax cast steel plug, due to the microscopic nature of the mating surfaces. Apply a tiny amount of Birchwood Casey's Choke Tube Lube, or a good anti-seize grease, or graphite grease, before testing any threaded plug in any barrel. We have seen "seized" plugs that were inserted by finger pressure only. Seized threads can "gall" (tear out chunks of thread), when you attempt to remove them.

Thread fit: several classes of thread fit (tightness of fit) exist for any thread size. Common nuts and bolts assemble easily, with fingers. Breech plugs have straight threads, never the tapered threads used for pipe fitting.

Barrel makers and plug makers do not all agree on which class of thread fit they use. Thus, the barrel makers tend to make the threaded holes slightly small, and some plug makers (especially makers of cast steel plugs) thread their plugs slightly large. You must make the threads fit together. The ideal fit will start with finger pressure, and tighten fully with one hand on a small wrench, with no side-to-side rattle when inserted about 2/3 depth.

If your plug rattles side-to-side, when inserted 2/3 depth, thread fit is too loose. If so, we recommend exchanging plugs, to find one that fits correctly. Loose threads are rare, in today's "over-tight" market, but it happens.

If your plug must be installed and removed with a long handled wrench, both hands, and great effort, thread fit is too tight. If so, the following two steps, bottom tapping and thread relief checking, will nearly always provide correct fit.

Zero clearance bottom tap: nearly all muzzle loading barrels are factory threaded for the plug. None are completely finished inside. Only the machine work is done. The final bottoming tap step must be completed by you, by hand.

A factory finished bottoming tap has one (1) thread relieved (chamfered) to allow the tap to be easily started. Make a special zero clearance bottom tap, by grinding the end of the tap perfectly square, with no chamfer. This special tap will be a bit more difficult to start, and may "chip" the front tooth, when you hit bottom. This is normal.

Apply thread cutting oil (lard oil or re-sulphurized cutting oil) to your tap. Insert the tap and run it up to the inside shoulder. Turn it snug, and back off a half turn, and repeat a few times, to extend the thread until it touches the face of the inside shoulder. A few large caliber barrels don't have much of an inside shoulder, but this procedure works equally well for those barrels. Remove the tap, inspect the tap's front, and carefully remove the loose tooth of the tap, from inside the breech threads, if it chipped. Clean the breech threads of oil and chips.

Thread relief: a few breech plugs have thread relief, a recessed area at the face of the plug, where the thread journal joins the plug. We dislike any undercut in this area, because it limits the torque that the plug will withstand. Despite that, these plugs work fine.

Many plugs, especially wax cast Hawken style plugs, have no thread relief. The threads simply stop short of the end of the thread journal.

Apply thread cutting oil to your plug threads. Start your threading die, backwards, on your plug threads. Snug the backwards die against the shoulder of the plug, withdraw one half turn, and repeat a few times. You will cut the last half turn of the thread, on many plugs. Check the fit of your plug to the barrel. If too tight, many dies have a split-ring adjustment screw, or a different die with a different class of thread fit, may be used to bring the threads to the desired size for easy fit. Excessively tight threads add very little strength, and can cause thread galling.

Measure plug thread length: using your dial or digital calipers, measure your plug journal's thread length. For example, perhaps your plug threads measure .625" length.

Measure barrel thread depth: using your dial or digital calipers, measure your barrel's breech thread depth. For example, perhaps your barrel threads measure .750" depth. Plugs are generally shorter than barrel threads.

Trim plug, or barrel, to matching length: in our example, above, the plug thread is .625" length, and the barrel thread is .750" depth. These must match exactly. So, you must trim off the difference. In our example, trim .125" from the breech face of the barrel. A gunsmith will use a metal lathe to simplify this work. A milling machine will easily trim a straight octagon or round barrel (or a tapered barrel if your vise is set to compensate for taper). At home, you may trim off the barrel with a large mill file, and a bench vise. Paint the end of the barrel with ink, scribe the desired line, and file slowly to maintain control and keep the file flat. Rotate the barrel after a few strokes, to keep the end flat. Regardless of the tool used, cut less than needed, measure your progress, and sneak up to your desired depth in several small cuts. When the measurements match exactly, remove the tiny burr from the end of the threads.

Test your plug's fit: wipe away any cutting oil, and paint the face of your breech plug with Magic Marker ink, or Dykem blue. Apply anti-seize to the threads, and insert the plug into your barrel. Using a small adjustable wrench or gunsmith's plug wrench (shop made to fit the plug's wrench lug), turn the plug until it is seated fully. If both hands plus great force is required, your plug is too tight. Notice where the plug stops. If the plug aligns exactly with the top of your barrel, you are very lucky, and you are done.

Inspect your plug's face: remove the plug, and inspect the ink on the plug face. If the plug face touched the inside shoulder of the barrel, the ink will be smudged and marked, proving a good seal. If not, your barrel is still a tiny bit too long. Adjust the length, and repeat the test.

Measure the index angle error: if your unmarked barrel is octagon, any flat can be the top. If your unmarked barrel is round, any position can be top.

In the real world, your octagon or round barrel will probably have a name or caliber mark stamped on a side or flat, near the breech.

In our example, we assume that our plug fits inside, with no gap outside, but the plug needs to turn in three (3) more flats, to align with the desired top flat. Thus, we need to cut a bit more off the barrel length, and the same amount from the plug face, so the plug will fit exactly, when the top flat aligns with the seated plug.

Calculate the amount of error: the amount to be trimmed from the barrel and plug will depend on the thread pitch (number of threads per inch):

Your 9/16-18 plug, or 5/8-18 plug, has 18 threads per inch. Each full turn of the plug enters 1/18" or .056". Thus, each octagon flat is 1/8 turn, or .007" forward distance, per flat turned.

Your 3/4-16 plug has 16 threads per inch. Each full turn of the plug enters 1/16" or .062". Thus, each octagon flat is 1/8 turn, nearly .008" forward distance, per flat turned.

Your 7/8-14 plug has 14 threads per inch. Each full turn of the plug enters 1/14" or .071". Thus, each octagon flat is 1/8 turn, nearly .009" forward distance, per flat turned.

Trim both plug and barrel, to a new matching length: in our example, if our 5/8-18 plug stops three (3) flats short of the desired alignment, we cut 3 x .007" = .021" from the face of the plug. And, we cut the same .021" from the breech of the barrel. Plug and barrel thread lengths must exactly match.

Install the plug: wipe away chips and oil, apply anti-seize, and snug the plug into correct alignment. You may wish to withdraw the plug, and check for marked on the inked on the plug face, to insure a good seal.

If you have cut too much, you must re-calculate the number of flats in error (perhaps seven), and repeat the fitting process. We consider .500" thread engagement (counting only the length of good threads), to be the minimum acceptable amount for optimum strength, for a small plug. Cut less than you estimate, check your work, and approach a perfect fit slowly.

Draw-file and polish your plug and barrel: after you have achieved a perfect fit, draw-file the plug to match the barrel. Hold the file in both hands, and slowly drag it at right angles to the barrel and plug, keeping it perfectly flat. Clean your file frequently, brushing away all chips. We wrap abrasive cloth around the file, to finish the work. Abrasive coated denim disks, with adhesive gum back, can be cut into strips and wrapped around your file. These aggressive disks are used in auto body repair, sold at auto parts stores. When we install your plug, our gunsmith does not draw-file or polish.

Match-mark your plug and barrel: if you will ever remove the plug, after draw-filing and polishing, strike a match-mark line across the joint, on the bottom flat, to insure perfect re-alignment.
 
After each filing and before installing breech plug to check fit, , make sure to clean all the threads and face of filings to ensure that you fit is correct.
 
Below are pictures and instructions he provided and I followed those to the letter and the plug installed nicely

Next two photographs show approximate window I want with both both surfaces (bottom of plug and face) ‘perfectly’ matched and what I call a partial torque or almost tight enough.

1681251679465.jpeg


1681251702276.jpeg


If I go past the lineup shown in the second photograph I’m coming around a full 360° again. Once happy with things, I then apply Never-Seez and torque to final position. That final crush makes for a tight joint.
 
I've got a Rice barrel. I will call him but was hoping to not bother the man.The Barrel came with bp but not installed. I can screw it in by hand and it goes past last flat just a bit.It likes 3/4 of the width of a flat being lined up.Ive measured with calipers and bot measurements are the same. Bp threads and barrel flat inside whare riding starts. It also shows signs where it was bottomed out. Is it ok to go that extea 3/4flat to line it up. Thanks. It's 36 cal.
First off, I am not a subject matter expert on breech plug installation, though I have installed and removed more than I can recall at the moment. Expect others to chime in.

I find Rice installed breech plugs rather snug, though I have not had any difficulty removing or installing them. Run them in and out a few times and they seem to loosen a bit. Rice deals with a lot customers and sets the torque required where it is for a reason. Some TC factory install plug first time out can make the Rice plugs feel loose.

The first @chorizo post above were instructions I believe that came from NMLRA published materials I received. His third post above with photographs is my explanation of how I get the feel on installing plug. Typically I only share these with folks that request assistance when I have confidence in their mechanical aptitude. Of the half dozen or so I have helped with this explanation, none had any issue that I know of. If they did have problems, imagine I would have been called out. This is not the only way to install a breech plug, just how I finish up an installation.

@Crow#21957, I suggest you order both the breech plug wrench and barrel vice blocks that Rice sells. It will be a good investment if you are serious about this hobby. I am not sure if there are useful videos showing them in use, and suggest you talk to Jason at Rice. He has been extremely knowledgeable and helpful in my experience.

Installing a breech plug is a skill level above the basics of pulling a barrel from a stock or a removing a stuck nipple or bullet, and yet some struggle with those tasks. Take your time and plan out exactly what you are going to do before starting the next step. If something doesn’t feel or look right, stop and get help, just as you did in your OP. Charge ahead blindly, as we have seen some do in a few recent threads, and you will just create more problems for yourself that need to be resolved, possibly getting frustrated to the point of giving up.

Apologies for the rant.
 
Those instructions are all well and good provided you have a lathe with a spindle hole large enough to pass the barrel and skills to use it.

An undergraduate engineering education, years in aviation and automotive service, and a passion for machining has taught me a lot about fasteners....mainly if you want it to fit you have to make it yourself due to manufacturing tolerances and leadscrew/gear pitch errors. Another thing I learned is crush, stretch, and surface compatibility.

Some takeaways: An A thread and a B thread made by two different manufacturers to any given fit tolerance will not be exactly the same and require some crush to "seat" the threads. Often, applying an anti-galling agent (actually an extreme pressure lubricating paste, NOT an anti-seize compound) and torquing/loosening the parts several times will form the threads to better fit each other, so try that. Moly disulfide paste is the best thing to use to prevent galling of ferrous metals under pressure.

I cut my own threads to class 3 or better ("machinist fit") even if I bought a ready-made breech plug (single-point the barrel threads to match the given dimensions of the breech plug), torque them with sulfurized cutting oil, then clean all that off and install with medium-strength thread locker. One of the little-recognized properties of liquid threadlockers is that they prevent corrosion, seal the threaded interfaces, and although they increase the break-free strength dramatically, they prevent rust-lock. A little heat and the plug comes right out.

From what I've seen of original thread fits, none of this is very important for a muzzleloader. Cram it together and have at it.

20230722_142606.jpg
 
Hmmm, I did all mine with a file, square and wrench following those instructions. No lathe.

BTW: Sorry for sharing something that isn't mine to share, but I found it so easy to follow I just didn't think that it should be too hard for most anyone.

Here is before the finishing filing on the outside


1691456322235.png


1691456345535.png



Finished up.
1691456558770.png
 
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I use sheet lead to hold the barrel in the vise and a couple of aluminum pads on the plug to prevent damage from the 12" crescent wrench I use. A good plug wrench is better I know. My Colerain barrel is fit with a tight thread all the way in and a good crush fit on the barrel shoulder. A patch on a tight jag will stop on the ridge pushed up where the barrel meets the plug if the plug is removed. In other words, it's a good tight fit on the plug that won't leak.

Chorizo,
What's the purpose of that threaded and plugged hole in the top flat? Some kind of sight mounting?
 
BTW: Sorry for sharing something that isn't mine to share, but I found it so easy to follow I just didn't think that it should be too hard for most anyone.
No issue at all with @chorizo posting what I sent him. Probably carries more weight coming from someone who followed the advice and it worked, at least for them. Thanks for posting.
 
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Believe I remember a post in another thread where the OP was going request Rice remove the plug after installing.
Yeah thank's ,I'm pretty sure @Crow#21957 will just do what he want's to anyways, despite any and all advice.
And his response too his gun build or any shooting questions,, will probably be found in the Craftsman section in an unrelated topic.

p.s. somebody, Please,, tell him to look for a witness mark,,(?)
 
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Those instructions are all well and good provided you have a lathe with a spindle hole large enough to pass the barrel and skills to use it.

An undergraduate engineering education, years in aviation and automotive service, and a passion for machining has taught me a lot about fasteners....mainly if you want it to fit you have to make it yourself due to manufacturing tolerances and leadscrew/gear pitch errors. Another thing I learned is crush, stretch, and surface compatibility.

Some takeaways: An A thread and a B thread made by two different manufacturers to any given fit tolerance will not be exactly the same and require some crush to "seat" the threads. Often, applying an anti-galling agent (actually an extreme pressure lubricating paste, NOT an anti-seize compound) and torquing/loosening the parts several times will form the threads to better fit each other, so try that. Moly disulfide paste is the best thing to use to prevent galling of ferrous metals under pressure.

I cut my own threads to class 3 or better ("machinist fit") even if I bought a ready-made breech plug (single-point the barrel threads to match the given dimensions of the breech plug), torque them with sulfurized cutting oil, then clean all that off and install with medium-strength thread locker. One of the little-recognized properties of liquid threadlockers is that they prevent corrosion, seal the threaded interfaces, and although they increase the break-free strength dramatically, they prevent rust-lock. A little heat and the plug comes right out.

From what I've seen of original thread fits, none of this is very important for a muzzleloader. Cram it together and have at it.

View attachment 243200
Yep, anyone skilled in how to use a lathe will figure out how to mount a breech plug with minimal instruction. Probably in minutes.

Not that it matters, but personally went through a tool and die apprenticeship followed by undergrad and graduate degrees in engineering, used FEA and material properties to confirm things, etc. Lost my way with many of the detailed technical skills of craft, as I went into engineering management early in my career. Doesn’t really mean a thing when building a muzzleloader.

Yes I know how to use a four jaw chuck, provide support in the headstock for the barrel, use gauge pins to indicate in the bore, etc. Wonder why everyone doesn’t just use a lathe (or a vertical mill) to install their breech plugs? It’s so quick and simple. If you did a survey, I bet you would find that most don’t know how to operate one, let alone have access to or own a lathe. Would call that a significant clue. The challenge in the exercise was how can a breech plug be installed into a threaded barrel breech with something most already have or can easily obtain, the lowly file. No uncharted territory on this one. The file has been in use for centuries. Yes, one will also need a larger wrench and some type of vice. But that’s all that is available in the toolbox. That was the point of my suggestions.

To me the engineering challenge was to successfully show someone how to do something with minimal tools (that they already had and understood how to use) with minimal if any additional training. The fact that I have been able to help guide some through the process (or any other) is rewarding enough for me. If @chorizo (who most likely would have figured things out on his own without my input) had not posted about it I would have happily stayed in the background on the topic. It’s not rocket science and doesn’t require working knowledge and application of third order differential equations. Actually find it relaxing for what it is. Apologize for being long winded.
 
Your safety, and the safety of the future users of your gun, depend on your correct fitting of the plug.
Amen, Bro. Safety and longevity of the rifle are at risk with an improperly seated breech plug. I am just enough of a non-craftsman to know I would (and never have) never attempt to seat a breech plug myself. Even with Chorizo's excellent instructions, if one does not have the aptitude of a skilled machinist, this is a job best farmed out to an expert.
 
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