Pyrodex...will somebody please explain?

[CaptainKirk]

I don't like to think of myself as stupid...I fully understand the lure of the "holy black" in a purist type of way. But there are times when it's unavailable, or too bloody expensive due to HAZMAT shipping charges to be practical; thus, I've settled into a routine; "P" for the pistols and RS for the rifles. I've worked up loads I'm comfortable with.
So, I'm a bit confused at all the allegations of rusting, pitting, poor performance, ad nauseum that seem to fly around the use of Pyro on a regular basis.

1)I've been shooting Pyro pretty much exclusively for the last three decades. I clean up with Hoppes #9 PLUS BP solvent and patch lube. I've noticed no rust, corrosion or pitting in any of my guns. Maybe I'm doing something wrong by not having rust? I dunno... :idunno:

2) Speaking of cleanup, using the #9+ makes cleanup as easy as cleaning a CF gun. This is supposed to be a messy, smelly, and inconvenient process. Again, ..... :idunno:

3) Granted, I don't probably don't shoot as much as many of you. But for the shooting I do, Pyro seems to work fine.

4) My next gun will probably be a rock-lock, thus, I'll be using real holy black. But I've noticed no hangfires or misfires in any of my caplocks to date, except once when I tried to shoot some Pyro from the bottom of a can that was at least four years old. It still fired, but was weak. Go figure!

So, for those of you who truly hate Pyro from other than a historical standpoint, please clue me in as to why you hate the stuff so much?

 

[Bill Hall]

There are those among us who can fully explain the TRUTH about the differences between the two types of powders, but generally speaking, life is an exercise in determining fact from prejudice, and this forum is no acception (and I consider myself to be one of the anti-pryo racists). :rotf: Bill

 

[hoochiepapa]

I was told that poopodex is fine in the factory made rifles, because of the fine steel that is used. But also I was told by Chuck Dixon that it sets up a chemical reaction in the softer steel of the custom barrels that makes potassium perchlorate, and that eats the barrels up. The chemical gets in the pores of the metal, and rust forms. Because it is in the pores, it's almost impossible to get out, and eventually destroys the barrel.
Dan Pharris explained it in an earlier thread. :idunno:

 

[George]

So, for those of you who truly hate Pyro from other than a historical standpoint, please clue me in as to why you hate the stuff so much?

I got into ML shooting in order to learn what it was like in the early days, what my forebears experienced when black powder was all they had. I've never had the slightest interest in any BP substitute, never fired a single shot using them, but I certainly don't hate them. I guess you'd say my interest is entirely historical. I do admit to being puzzled why anyone would get into black powder shooting and then immediately start figuring ways to eliminate all the disadvantage and handicaps which go along with it, because forr me that's a powerful part of its attraction. That puzzlement extends to all aspects of the sport, not just the powder. We all play different games, and my game doesn't include substitutes, it's as simple as that. Personal choice. I don't care what anyone else does.

Spence

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Crapodex pellets need real BP to set them off, and that's with a 209 primer in an inline.

That should tell you something.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Here's what poopodex will do to your Getz barrel. I forgot my Goex for an elk hunt, and my brother-in-law was camped near me and loaned me RS. I unloaded my gun every night by shooting it. And, I might add, cleaned it. Six times, and this is what it did.
First patches(doubled) dry, then the next three soaked in ballistol. All hogdon would do for me is send me 5 lbs of 3F.

 

[Zonie]

Back in April I made a topic dealing with Pyrodex.
The following is what I said:

"Some time back there was a discussion about Pyrodex and Perchlorates causing corrosion in the barrels that had used it.

At the time, I indicated that I would try to contact Hodgdon and get their take on it.

The following is a copy of the message I just got around to sending to them followed by their responce.
---------------
From: Jim King
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:27 PM
To: Help Account
Subject: Pyrodex Powder Corrosion

As a moderator on a well known Muzzleloading Forum (Muzzleloadingforum.com), I am continually reading posts which maintain that Pyrodex contains Pechlorates and that these Pechlorates will cause irreparable harm to the barrel if Pyrodex is used in a gun.

Being an Engineer rather than a Scientist I do not know what the byproducts of firing Pyrodex is so I am asking:

Does Pyrodex contain any form of Perchlorate?

If Perchlorates are present in Pyrodex, are the byproducts of firing it in a muzzleloading firearm corrosive?

If the Pechlorates produce chemicals that are corrosive to steel specifically, what are they?

Some are alleging that the corrosion produced by firing Pyrodex is on the micro etching/corrosion that cannot be seen with the naked eye.

If the byproducts are corrosive, what special cleaning process beyond the normal soap/water methods commonly used in muzzleloaders are required?

As a side-note, I have shot Pyrodex for many years and I have not seen any unusual corrosion in my guns however I have not examined the bores with high magnification so the micro-corrosion alleged by some would not be easily detectable.

As I mentioned, I am a Moderator and our web site has over 16,500 members, many of whom shoot Pyrodex and they are concerned.
Your rapid reply to my questions will be greatly appreciated by both them and myself.

If you do answer this, please be aware that I intend to quote your answers on the website (giving full credit to your company for the information).

Thank You for your time

James King (alias Zonie)
-----------------------
Ok, here’s the deal. I get this question 50 times a year and they all originate from web sites. The problem with the internet is that there are so many “experts” who really have no knowledge but want to portray themselves as the keepers of all knowledge as long as they can hide in the anonymity of the internet.

Yes, Pyrodex contains pecrhlorates.

No, they do not etch the barrel at some minute level so small it can only be viewed under a full moon while wearing a wizard outfit.

NASA and the DOD both have tested and used Pyrodex over the past 35 years. Their testing contradicts the “experts” on the internet. They found Pyrodex to be no more corrosive than black powder.

Cleaning of Pyrodex residue is the same as black powder. No petro solvents, only water based or polar solvents. Soap is great. Windex with vinegar is great, Ballistol is the best thing for cleaning muzzleloaders I have ever seen, with all powders.

I don’t know how to make it any more plain, no special problems with Pyrodex. Shoot the gun, Clean the gun completely and you are just fine.

Those who want to continue to spew about their “expert” knowledge about the corrosiveness of Pyrodex and how it magically micro-pits barrels are going to continue to spew the same old tired stuff. How could the continue to be the anonymous “expert” hiding on the internet if they gave up. That is just the nature of the internet. I (we) are bound by truth, the “experts” are bound by their imaginations.

I hope this helps. I would say that it may be best to just give the best advice ever, “When you want to know about a product, call the maker. 800-622-4366”


Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction Manager

The Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants

Hodgdon Smokeless Powders

Winchester Legendary Propellants

IMR Propellants

Pyrodex

Triple Seven

Goex Black Powder

------------------

Perhaps this answer will calm the fears some of our members may have about using Pyrodex in their firearms.

I fully expect to see the folks who made the charges say Hodgdons answer is just a CYA however based on my use of Pyrodex for many years and the condition of my gun barrels I tend to side with Mr. Daly"

For a link to the entire discussion, follow this link: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/246032/post/849560/fromsearch/1/

As I've mentioned before I often shoot Pyrodex P and RS in my custom rifles and I have yet to see any corrosion or rusting in my bores.
These guns have Colrain, Getz and Green Mountain barrels on them which in my mind totally dispels the myth that modern steels used by modern barrel makers are subject to some sort of attack from Pyrodex fouling.

I will say that I clean my barrels as soon as I get home from a days shooting but this applies to the barrels I have shot black powder in too.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

What a smart ass answer he gave you.

If I was using Crapodex, i'd stop after that guys attitude.

 

[Zonie]

With your hatred of Pyrodex, I wouldn't expect you to believe what I posted.

After reading many of your posts giving your opinion I have often wondered if you have given it a fair test by shooting 4 or 5 pounds of it in your rifles/pistols?

Having shot far more than that amount of it without seeing any negative effects in my guns, I think I've given it a fair chance. Have you?

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I posted about his attitude. Not what he said.

Yes, I gave it a chance.

I use butter and not margarine.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Some just don't like anything that isn't "historicaly correct" , some don't like the higher ignition temp makeing misfires more likely, and some remember back when they first started making it it had a different formula and was very corrosive. So take your pick! :hmm:

 

[hoochiepapa]

I have always been almost fanatical about cleaning my Getz barrel. I washed it with soap, rinsed with clean warm water, dried it immediately and then coated it with Outers gun oil. Only recently did I use Lehigh Valley to clean it with, and most recently ballistol. I would remove the drum and clean it, and wipe a small amount of oil on it. I would wipe the bore with a clean dry patch before loading for the next shooting session. The only change to any of my routines was the poopodex.
So what caused the rust I am experiencing? All evidence points to the poopodex. The rust only appeared after that hunt. I never experienced any rust or faint coloring before. And the rifle is 6 years old. And I am not a poopodex hater as labeled by some. I used it in my Cabela's Hawken for years, but if I'm not mistaken that barrel is chrome moly steel. And I was not nearly astute at cleaning that as I have been for my Getz.

 

[MSW]

I've used the stuff off and on for a fair number of years, and I haven't had the problems described by the pyro-haters. In a few of my pistols, it wasn't as good as 'black,' and in a few it didn't seem to make all that much difference.

Long ago and far away, I watched a similar discussion play out on the base rod&gun range...

BP guy: "You're not shooting that junk, are you?"
Pyro guy: "Well, it works well enough for me.."
BP guy: "Well, anyone who shoots that stuff is an idiot ..."
Pyro guy "Guess I'm an idiot. By the way, is that your target, the one without the holes in it?"

take- home point: if it works for you, then it's working and if it ain't broke, don't tinker with it.

just one guy's free opinion, and no doubt money well spent.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Here's the bottom line.

Some guys like it. Some guys hate it, or at least don't like it.

Some get misfires. Some don't.

Some get corrosion. Some don't.

Other than hard to get. Does anybody have a problem with real BP?

Why try to be authentic in everything you can, and then use a modern wannabe powder?

 

[crowkiller]

I used pyro one time and one time only.
On a 90 degree day and very humid.It setup like concrete in my horn. So I started dipping out of the bottle and within 2 hours it setup like concrete to.This is from just taking the peg out of the horn and the lid off of the bottle.
You guys haven't lived until you try digging concrete pyro mush out of a powder horn.
So that is my experience with with pyro.

I have to add. This happened in a hot dove field.

 

[Idaho Ron]

I have been using Pyrodex for as long as I can remember. When I was a kid I used black but back then it was easy to get. I use Pyrodex P now in all my rifles. It is easy to get and accurate. In short it gets the job done and done well in both 45's and 50's. Ron

 

[tg]

" I do admit to being puzzled why anyone would get into black powder shooting and then immediately start figuring ways to eliminate all the disadvantage and handicaps which go along with it"

Good post Bob, I to have never seen any point in "stepping back" in time to an earlier gun technology all aspects of the sport thus doing everything possible to make modernize the gun and gear preform like modern centerfire equipment, from which one just put down and walked away from.It defies logic and common sense and any explaination I have ever heard is an ever spiraling nonsensical journey to nowhere.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Let me explain, if I may....
Many of you live where you can walk into Ye Olde Rondy Shoppe and buy a pound of GOEX or Swiss and walk out. Many of the local Bass Pro Shops, Gander Mountains, Cabelas, etc do not carry holy black, or do so infrequently...though they carry SUBSTITUTES on the shelf (Pyro, Triple 7, Shockey's Gold, etc...). This leaves two options; drive for a couple hours to a shop that might carry it, or order it by mail.
Most mail-order suppliers charge a hefty HAZMAT...IF they will ship to Illinois at all, which is doubtful (we have some of the most retarded firearms/ammo laws in the lower 48)Top that with the fact most of them have a minimum order of, say 25 lbs (taken from a list of one of our "nameless" sponsors here). Let's say you hook a SCREAMING deal of 15 bucks a pound. Now, do the math...IF they will ship it here (???), 25 lbs at $15.00 a pound is $375.00, if my math is correct....add shipping on 25+ lbs, add $25.00 HAZMAT...holy moly, we're rollin' out over 4 bills for the opportunity to be "authentic" at the range!
Now, maybe 4 bills is nothing to some of you. But it means quite a bit to me. I could buy a nice rifle kit for that sort of scratch...not to mention the fact I don't want 25 lbs of BP sitting in my basement. Ever hear of house fires? Yeaaaahhhh..... :shake:
So, maybe it's a bit easier to comprehend why some of us don't get out undies in a bundle over a propellant. BTW; I wear blue jeans and a T-shirt at the range most of the time, so I guess I stick out anyway. :idunno:

 

[BillinOregon]

I have some Pyrodex on the premises, but normally use BP in my guns. My take on Pyrodex is that it is sometimes a bit harder to ignite than black (one reason why it can't be used in flinters), and therefore your nipple needs to be in top shape and teh caps had better be good and hot. (When possible, I swap out to musket nipples in percussion rifles anyway.)
My other conclusion is that Pyrodex is at least as corrosive as black powder, if not more so, and if you miss something while cleaning after shooting Pyrodex, you will pay for it dearly in rust.
The subject of Triple 7 has not come up, but I admit to using this occasionally when I do not want to have to boil water to clean the gun. It is especially good stuff to use in a cap and ball revolver -- the toughest of the BP guns to get clean, in my experience.
I certainly understand many shooters' frustrations in not being able to obtain black powder. I am still working on the last case I bought by mail.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I pay $111 for 5lbs shipped to my door in 3 days.

Lets not exaggerate what it costs.