Point and Click Shooting - .58 Rifled Round Ball

[smo]

Sheesh guys. This stuff is simple.

Shooting is math, and the best shooters research the base knowledge, keep it in the back of their mind, and figure out the best way to shoot without thinking.

Some of the very best shooters I've ever met could barely count or read and write. But they could shoot. They knew what their rifles would do and how to make them work from experience. :wink:


Take good care of those young eyes my Friend! :hatsoff:

 

[nkbj]

Local,
Good job on doing the preparatory study first.
And on getting a barrel set up to do what you want it to.
:hatsoff:

 

[roundball]

Sheesh guys. This stuff is simple. Shooting is math, and the best shooters research the base knowledge, keep it in the back of their mind, and figure out the best way to shoot without thinking.

Some of the very best shooters I've ever met could barely count or read and write. But they could shoot. They knew what their rifles would do and how to make them work from experience. :wink:

Completely agree...I guess we all get drawn into hobbies with different levels of understanding and assumptions based on our previous experiences, and right now the OP's approach seems to be based on the concepts normally associated with modern centerfire cartridge shooting that he's familiar with...understandable.

While I'll never be confused with a 'purist', one of the major appeals to me about traditional muzzleloader hunting was the challenge of learning to take game like the Settlers did without the benefit of modern high tech equipment and computer programs. As a result, the degree of accomplishment / satisfaction I've felt has been exponentially greater than all the previous decades of using high tech reloading equipment and ballistics programs to try and coax another hair-splitting degree of accuracy out of a .264 Win Mag or .30-06 at 300 yards for example.

I get a good feeling of "this is how they did it" when I basically measure a powder charge with a teaspoon (brass powder measure), stuff a simple lead ball down the bore of a Flintlock in a cloth patch, and drag out a deer later that day, like it was done all around the world for a few centuries. It took some time for me to realize as we eventually do, that the surprising effectiveness of a simple good size diameter patched ball that is already as large or larger diameter than many mushroomed modern bullets when it arrives on target, is not revealed in modern ballistics programs.

 

[Tony Logan]

58 is great, It is good you know what you are getting into as far as drop goes before you even get started. As soon as I got mine I sighted mine in with an average charge (70-80 3F) at 50 yds. I wanted a woods walk, novelty, and hunting gun. I was shocked at the drop at 75 and then at 100. I then dumped in 100 of 3F and it evened things out a bit. I am shooting .562 balls and 85 grains I think. It is spot on close up to hit novelty targets and 50 yd paper. I know it still drops a few of inches at 75-100. I just aim a little higher on deer. If I am on a woods walk or at the range I dump in 100 of 3f for 75 to 100 yd knock down targets. Its not a 40 caliber.

 

[tecum-tha]

Point blank range for elk in the northwest 100 yards??? I doubt that assumption heavily. How do the archery hunters kill elk?? I tell you one thing from 19 years of traditional bowhunting. Getting within 50-70 yards of elk is a breeze. Getting within 25 yards or less and having a good angle is the challenge. If I would hunt elk with a ML, I would go home after a max. of 3-4 days everytime.
That why the ML licenses are very limited compared to the archery license. That is not even worth the two day driving to the destination.
Yes, you can shoot several hundred rounds, but I would rather shoot maybe 100 rounds, then know your load and rifle and then start to scout and learn how to get close.... Time better invested.

 

[George]

[I get a good feeling of "this is how they did it" when I basically measure a powder charge with a teaspoon (brass powder measure), stuff a simple lead ball down the bore of a Flintlock in a cloth patch, and drag out a deer later that day, like it was done all around the world for a few centuries.

I agree, and the more primitive it is the better I like it, but I think it's not necessary to choose one way or the other. Even when I'm wearing a breechclout and moccasins and shoot my long-barreled flintlock smoothbore loaded with tow and a homemade roundball with a big sprue, physics still operates the same. It's not necessary that I be ignorant of the path of that ball. Knowing where it is at every spot along the way makes me a more efficient hunter in that I'm using my gun to its maximum potential, and it makes me a more humane hunter because I am not guessing whether the gun is capable of making the shot.

Anyone who limits himself to 50 yard shots doesn't need to understand much about trajectories, and most don't, but that's not the only way to do it. Mathematics and physics are not theoretical sciences, and trying to understand how they apply to my shooting has been a large part of my shooting pleasure, even though I do most of it with four-hundred-year old technology. That approach is even a bit HC/PC. Isaac Newton figured out the basic laws which govern our trajectories in the 1680s, Benjamin Robbins explored the practical application of them to our shooting in the early 18th century, including velocities, trajectories, drag, &c., &c. BTW, he didn't limit himself to 50 yards.

Spence

 

[Sean Gadhar]

While I don't chart each of my guns, I think whatever you want to do (within reason), to make yourself more sure of your shooting you should do.

I plan to put several hundred rounds down range before hunting season this year, I just want the best starting point first.

:hatsoff: Might I suggest about half of those should be away from the range & fired at unknown distance (check it after the shot). Get a feel for what 75, 45, 50, 90 yards looks like, when seen over that rifle.

Of course, this may all seem silly if you can keep your range around 50 yards. Unfortunately, up here in the northwest. 100 yards is generally considered point blank range.

Best re-chart that! It is like picking up a bow, Point blank in hunting is the point where you can put 10 out of 10 where you want them, every time (and well within the lethal range of the weapon). Northwest or southeast it stays the same, what changes is, in open country like we hunt, we have to change how we hunt, more then others do. Just yank the wires on that " up here in the northwest. 100 yards is generally considered point blank range." it is that way ONLY because people have 200 &300 yard guns in there hands, NOT because they couldn't get closer if they had to.

anyway that's :2

 

[roundball]

[I get a good feeling of "this is how they did it" when I basically measure a powder charge with a teaspoon (brass powder measure), stuff a simple lead ball down the bore of a Flintlock in a cloth patch, and drag out a deer later that day, like it was done all around the world for a few centuries.

Anyone who limits himself to 50 yard shots doesn't need to understand much about trajectories, and most don't, but that's not the only way to do it.

BTW, he didn't limit himself to 50 yards.

Appears to be a tone that suggests a misunderstanding...I never said anything about a 50 yard limit. I was referring to my example of the hunting conditions I deal with, by saying:

"...I used a 50yd zero on both because 99% of my woods shots are 25-50yds through trees & branches so I wanted a laser in those conditions.
Then I checked drop at 100yds and found it to be about 5" and planned to just hold top of the heart out around 100yd but have never had to.
The .58cal will easily take deer, elk, moose, etc...a real powerhouse..."

If my average shot distance was 75-125 yards, then I'd use a 100yd zero because I know what the drops are from actual range trip testing, not a modern ballistics program.
:thumbsup:

 

[George]

I wasn't speaking to you specifically, Roundball, but to the board, I just fell in line and was doing a little philosophizing. Wasn't aware of any 'tone', but if there was one it was directed at the situation, not any individual. IMHO, the situation does deserve some tone.

Judging from many past conversations, I would guess that a large number of the shooters on this board do limit their shooting to something near 50 yards. And, there can be no doubt many on the board are critical of anyone who wants to apply modern understanding to the way their old-fashioned guns work. They aren't shy about saying so, even though it is frequently obvious they don't really understand what it is they are criticizing. They speak of theoretical trajectories as though they are spawn of the devil. They don't seem to understand that with known velocity and any one known point along the way it is possible to say with very high reliability where the ball will be at any other point. And it's not all done in the arm chair, regardless of the snide remarks to that effect. I work up "theoretical" trajectories all the time and then go out and prove them in the field. Before I try them on game. I don't recall one ever being very far off the predicted mark, either on paper or on game. With my flintlock smoothbore, using tow wadding. Not usually wearing my breechclout, these days, because my thighs aren't as alluring as they used to be, but you get the point. :haha:

A picture is worth... I calculated a POI at 100 yards for my .40 caliber flintlock, which I had never shot at 100 yards before. I shot just once to check the prediction. It came true, as I knew it would, so I quit shooting. That sort of thing gives me a lot of satisfaction.



Spence

 

[Mad Professor]

I shot a conical with 120 gr once outta my .58. Wont be doing that again. :shocked2: OUCH

Posted before, My pop shot a buffalo at 50 yds with the .58 and a PRB and it whacked him hard, three leaps and down. 80 grains. Elk are not built any tougher. I'd rather hit a nice cow in the boiler room with my 75 gr load all day that put a 120 grain load just outside.

Get to the range and start the process. If 120 is the magic number then so be it but I can tell ya I have killed many many elk with 75 grains. They taste good as if ya overtenderized em with 120!

Not sure which conical but for a 525gr hornday that is 30gr over a max load with 2FF. That kicks like a mule with 90gr.

 

[roundball]

I wasn't speaking to you specifically, Roundball, but to the board, I just fell in line and was doing a little philosophizing.

Oh...
I concluded it was directed to me because you directly responded to me by quoting a post of mine from back yesterday afternoon, rather than just answering in line today so to speak.

 

[George]

OK, I see where I confused you. sorry 'bout that. I agreed completely with the quotation from you, but then I left that thought behind and went on to more confusing ones. I should have given a hand signal for turning left. Not right, but left.

Spence

 

[azmntman]

It was a hornady. Like I said, won't be doing it again.

Worse yet a gunsmith buddy of mine, a big ol burly guy, put a rear sight on my CVA gobler few years back and I shot it and he said it was like a 6 yard pattern at 20 yds. Not believing him I said you shoot it and i'll watch. Well we were talking etc and I was loadin and forgot the over powder card so I went to the trash can and dumped the load (I thought). I reloaded and he shot and dropped to is knees then his back in fetal position screaming rocking back and forth "i don't do recoil". It appears only the shot came out and I had loaded 200 grains! Fortunately he didn't die and the barrel held OK (but blew the front bead off). He still thinks I did it on purpose. I would NEVER chance injury (or worse) to a friend and damage to my gun. I did learn though and now use the C02 gadget when needing to assure the WHOLE load is outta the barrel. He is a good sport and actually replaced the bead too! Learn from my error and make SURE the first powder load is out before reloading in any similar situations.

 

[localfiend]

Wow, I didn't realize that a little bit of research and a few questions would stir up so many hornets.

The hornets aside, I think I've gotten some very good info from a bunch of you that responded and I have my answer.

It looks like a reasonable heavy load, will in fact give a noticeably better trajectory. It won't increase the flat range much beyond 100 yards, but it will add for much greater consistency if I can find a good load, ball, & patch combination to go with it. I'm going to go with a slower twist, higher powder charge and figure out the rest on the range.

As an aside, a little bit of math isn't out of character for the period at all. If you want to role-play the average hunter, trapper, or frontiersman who had little thought/time for anything other than getting meat on the table that's all well and good.

I would be very surprised however, if the more educated people of the time, including the gunsmiths and military men of the day didn't have something down on paper. It is the western way after all, pushing the boundaries and exploring. Everything I did on the computer was probably done by hand in some fashion back in the day.

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions. I'll take all of your wisdom to heart. Happy shooting. :thumbsup:

 

[galamb]

I shot a conical with 120 gr once outta my .58. Wont be doing that again. :shocked2: OUCH

Posted before, My pop shot a buffalo at 50 yds with the .58 and a PRB and it whacked him hard, three leaps and down. 80 grains. Elk are not built any tougher. I'd rather hit a nice cow in the boiler room with my 75 gr load all day that put a 120 grain load just outside.

Get to the range and start the process. If 120 is the magic number then so be it but I can tell ya I have killed many many elk with 75 grains. They taste good as if ya overtenderized em with 120!

Not sure which conical but for a 525gr hornday that is 30gr over a max load with 2FF. That kicks like a mule with 90gr.

How do you determine what a "max load" is in this case - directions from the builder, barrel maker or mfg???

Looking at breech pressures in the Lyman handbook, for 58 cal's, 32" 1:48 barrel shooting 140 grains of Goex 2F I find the following:

510 gr Lyman 575212 = 12,400 psi
530 gr Lyman 575611 = 12,200 psi
555 gr T/C Maxi = 14,400 psi
566 gr Lyman 575213PH = 13,200 psi

In comparison, a 50 cal Great Plains Hunter (32" 1:32) shooting 90 grains of 2F under a 370 gr Lyman Maxi generates 13,600 psi at the breech - 15,500 psi if you bump it up to 100 grains of powder and nobody would consider that "dangerous" or "over charged" (Lyman posts a max charge of 100 grains of 2F with a 420 grain maxi for the GPR in 50 cal).

I'm still not saying I would want to pull the trigger on it, but it doesn't seem to be dangerous from the point of view of potential barrel or breech failure...

 

[TFoley]

Somebody is seriously overcomplicating their shooting. A 58 will kill anything u shoot at and do it at any range that u are gonna be able to get a good sight picture with open sights. Just shoot your gun and get familiar with it. Find an accurate load and leave the charts and graphs for the centerfire sniper wanna bees. Enjoy the sport for its simplicity. :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: Friend, you just said it all, right there.

tac

 

[BrownBear]

Wow, I didn't realize that a little bit of research and a few questions would stir up so many hornets.

Not any hornets that I see. More of a tempest in a tea pot on the "local" scale.

I have an assortment of 58's, five of them as a matter of fact including a couple of TC Big Boars, with barrels ranging from 24" to 36".

I like the caliber and shoot it lots. Probably hunt with it more than any other caliber.

In my hands in the hunting fields, it all boils down to trajectory for my needs. I want the load fast enough that it's not too high at midrange and not too low at the extreme end of my personal range limit. The truth is that they all shoot well enough for my needs to more or less ignore small changes in grouping as I move up or down the scale to adjust for trajectory.

That works out to a sight in at 75 yards, with a midrange height of no more than 2" and a drop of no more than 4" at 100 yards.

Due to the range of barrel lengths, you can guess I use a range of charges to achieve my trajectory goals. Along with that, I switch from 2f to 3f in the shorter barrels (including the TC Big Boars). Just a practical matter, because that's usually enough to be able to use the same powder measure with 3f as I use for 2f in the longer barrels. For my trajectory needs it boils down to a 90 grain measure, with whichever barrel and powder.

The exception is that 36" barrel. It's on a GRRW Hawken, and it just LIKES heavy charges. It's at its best accuracy-wise with 140 grains of 2f. And flat shooting too. But I've settled on 120 grains for ease and comfort at my usual ranges. It's flat shooting enough even at 120 grains that it would be my fer-sure long range elk or moose gun if I was inclined to shoot past 100 yards. NOT! :td:

 

[M. De Land]

I respectfully disagree that one shot means much of anything from an accuracy perspective or even elevation appraisal.
Now three to five in the same minute of angle has some meaning and ten would be conclusive. I can assure you the random cone of dispersion from all influences will be a great deal larger in five shots! MD

 

[M. De Land]

I believe I would want a good deal more than 75 grains of either 2 or 3F behind a patch ball in my .58 caliber rifle for the 100 yard shots on elk size game. Fine for a target load though. MD

 

[BrownBear]

Good point. The 90 grain charges I use are deer-only to 100 yards, and I should have specified that. Much faith and experience as I have in the 58, I'd have to say that if I was using that 90 grain charge for elk, I'd be limiting myself to 75 yards and 50 yards would make me happier.

In my hands with my guns, I'd probably go for a minimum 100 grain charge for 100 yard shooting and probably bump it to 110 if I really thought I'd be shooting 100 yards or a little over. Just my twitch, but for elk and moose, more is better unless you're willing to confine your shots closer.