philladelphia derringer lock issue

[BlackNet]

I bought a derringer kit and the lock does not line up with the nipple that well. it's about 1/16 - 3/32 off.

Few ways I can see correcting this.

1) Deepen the lock inlet, would make things uneven and I dont have the clearance for that.

2) anneal the hammer, bend the hammer to fit and retemper. Problem here is it's color case hardened and annealing would remove that.

3) possibly bent the nipple? Not quite fond of this path as the cap would not set correctly and replacing the nipple would be difficult.

Here are some photo's of the problem area if anyone has any solutions.

note in the last shot was before I started cleanup on the lock area. I was able to scrape out in the lock area and it does fit better but I am very hesitant to scrape it down to fit flush.

 

[R.M.]

As long as the lock is fit properly, you can bend the hammer cold. At least I have on several of mine. They are quite soft.

 

[BlackNet]

Tried that, no good. May not have used enough pressure but not going to chance it.

 

[Zonie]

Increase the depth of the locks mortice along the entire upper edge of the lock.
That will allow the lockplate to rotate inward at the top allowing the hammer to line up with the nipple better.

Do not try to bend the nipple. First off, it is too short to bend that far and second, it is hardened so it will break long before it bends.

I don't recommend bending the hammer unless you have tried deepening the upper area of the locks mortice.
Often, the hammer can be bent without heating but because it is a casting there is a risk of it breaking.
Also, if you do decide to try to bend the hammer you should remove it from the lock and clamp it in a vise. If you try to bend it while it is still mounted on the lock there is a very good chance that you will break the square hammer drive off of the hardened tumbler.

 

[BlackNet]

Yea I could do that. May be a tad thin on that side but it would work.

 

[paulvallandigham]

On most kits I have worked on, the stock is left with extra wood, and the mortises for the lock are not cut deep enough. You should have to remove wood between the hammer, and the tang to allow movement of the hammer when the lock is fitted properly against the barrel. In one picture I can still daylight between the inside of the hammer, and the wood above the lockplate. The amount of daylight seems to be about the same amount that the hammer skirt is "off " at the nipple. I think the suggestion of deepening the lock mortise is a good one.

Having said that, Pictures are better than words, but seeing a piece in person is the best way to see where the problems are.

Have you put marking dye on the internal parts to see if there are high spots inside the lock mortise that are keeping the lockplate from moving as far to the left as possible with the existing mortise edges? Are all the internal parts installed in the lock properly? The widest part of the inside of the lock is Usually the width of the mainspring? Is there enough clearance for the mainspring?

Fitting lockplates to the stock and barrel is maddening work sometimes. I don't think there is a gun I have worked on where I didn't learn something new, and a lot more about humility and patience. Hang in there. :thumbsup:

 

[mazo kid]

At least you have not put your finish on the kit yet, so I would just inlet the lock a little deeper if there is nothing keeping it from from going deeper into the inlet. If the wood on that side will end up being "thinner" when you flush it up, then you will have to thin the other side to match. I built the same (or very similar) kit 30+ years ago, but can't remember if I had any similar probems.

 

[BlackNet]

Actually I have yet to start work on this pistol. Wanted to get my game plan in place before I screw something up.

So I was able to deepen the lock and this is what I have so far.

I am going to be replacing all the screws in this kit as I have yet to see kit screws that I like.

I also do not like the color of this barrel and wasn't the originals were brown?

 

[rabjr]

Good luck on your kit. I don't generally allow anything CVA into my house but a friend found an old unopened Phill derringer kit and brought it over to me to put together for him. After looking over the parts I quickly realized something was terribly wrong, actually I wasn't surprised being a CVA. :barf: The barrel and breech didn't exactly line up right, so the jackasses filed the top flat so it was even with the breech and top barrel flat. When you place the barrel into the stock and look at the muzzle, you can see it leans to the left. :shake: :youcrazy:

 

[Charles D. Prokopp]

That's a fairly common situation with kits. Once I have the locks fully inset, if the hammer still isn't properly aligned, bending is a simple procedure. Measure how much more the nose needs to be moved. Pop the hammer off the lock and clamp it in a vise. Mark on the vise' jaw where the hammer nose needs to be. Heat the thin part of the hammer's gooseneck to red and bend till the nose lines up with the mark. Had to do it with every percussion pistol I've built.
As for browning, that was the common finish for these little guns. I used birchwood Casey's hot brown on mine and it worked fine.

 

[Zonie]

Ed:
The latest picture of the hammer/nipple looks much better. Maybe just a little bit more adjusting will be enough to make it just right.

You can either brown or blue the barrel. Either way it will look fine.
If you choose to blue it I recommend Birchwood Casey "Perma Blue", a cold bluing solution that is made to work on carbon steel. The Birchwood casey "Super Blue" is made for modern alloy steels and it doesn't work as well as Perma Blue on these kits.

If you choose to brown the barrel you can use either Birchwood Casey Plum Brown (requires some method of heating the metal to 280 degrees F) or one of the cold process slow rust browning like Laurel Mountain Forge Barrel Brown & Degreaser.

All of these will work best if the metal parts are totally oil, wax and grease free so use a degreaser like 90 proof alcohol to clean them before applying the coating.

The Browned finishes are much more durable than the cold bluing style finishes.
Not only that, if you use the cold browning methods, you can convert it to a "rust bluing" by boiling the browned part in distilled water for 10 minutes before you apply any oil it. (This boiling to change the color will not work if the browning has been oiled before boiling the part.)

The screws for your pistol will be metric. Do not try to use any of the common U.S. threaded screws.

 

[crockett]

That last picture looks pretty good to me, if the hammer comes down okay over the cap then all should be well.
I twisted a hammer cold and it didn't snap but I have to admit I was sort of worried and I'm not too hot about recommending it to others because maybe the metal will break. I put the bottom of the hammer in a vise put an adjustable wrench over the top part and carefully applied some pressure until I twisted the hammer into place. If you want to risk this go slow and be careful.

 

[BlackNet]

I have to say that the Pedersoli kits are outstanding. This is my first traditions kit and may be the last as I am somewhat spoiled.

Looks like the screws are flat head M5x.8 45mm and M4x.7 x 30mm, both flat head countersunk.

I use laurel mnt forge degrease and brown, I do have plum brown as well but not used it yet. So far the blue of choice is brownells oxpo-blue gell.