Pedersoli 2nd Model Brown Bess

[SgtErv]

Searched for a Navy Arms Bess or Charleville for a while, and then Track of the Wolf had a Pedersoli Bess...sooo....I have a Kings Musket on the way!!!

Couple questions.. The first one Gus and I had discussed and couldn't decide

1. I am a historical interpreter. How to take off the factory markings/ stamping? Not sure if I want to do this if it makes the gun any less safe, just wondering what folks preferred with this.

2. I hear there's a heavy trigger pull. Is this something owners have lived with or had modified?

3. Loads - I'm going to start with a .735 ball and .020 patch. 70gr Goex 2F. Plan on doing paper cartridges too. What do your alls like?

Any other particulars, feel free to chime in.

I'm so excited to get a Bess! Woo hoo!

 

[Silky921]

Look forward to seeing it. Should fit what you're portraying pretty well.

I had one for a while, but eventually decided it wasn't for me, so I sold it. However, I did lessen the trigger pull alot just by tuning up the lock. It wasn't a hair trigger, but it got the job done.

Congrats and I hope you enjoy it for years to come.

 

[SgtErv]

I'm primarily a rifleman/ frontiersman at the fort because I have to be, but working on a side impression of sorts, more Continental or eastern militia.

The 2nd model Bess...I kind of fell for military muskets because I usually tote one at the fort. The 2nd model King's musket has a looooot of history behind it. Also wanted a smoothbore for its versatility.

Anyway. I'm stoked. Been looking for a used one for a while. I fully trust Track of the Wolfs judgment on its condition

 

[Artificer]

Searched for a Navy Arms Bess or Charleville for a while, and then Track of the Wolf had a Pedersoli Bess...sooo....I have a Kings Musket on the way!!!

2. I hear there's a heavy trigger pull. Is this something owners have lived with or had modified?


I'm so excited to get a Bess! Woo hoo!

First thing before I forget, perhaps you can post a picture of the inside of your lock when you get it? The reason I ask is because there were an "Old Style" and a "New Style" Mainsprings and they WILL NOT interchange. The NA Brown Bess Carbine I bought in the early/mid 70's had the Old Style and the full length NA Bess I bought around 2000 had the new style. IF you have the Old Style, they are no longer made and would require a custom one made, if you ever have to replace it.

Yes, the trigger pull can be reduced to a very good feeling trigger for a Military Gun. It will never be equal to double set triggers on civilian flintlocks with a fly, though, and you can not get the trigger pull down that far and have the lock function safely.

OK, I have to sheepishly admit that though I began doing trigger pull work in the early/mid 70's on NSSA Military Guns, I never thought to use that experience on my Brown Bess while I was actively competing with it in the 70's. DUH!@!@ I did polish the parts, but just lived with the heavy trigger pull. The normal trigger pull weight is about 8 to 12 pounds as they come from the factory and that is thanks to the original design they copied.

The good news is you can reduce the trigger pull down to about 4- 4 3/4 pounds and have a good feeling trigger. BTW, 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 pound trigger pulls are the minimum trigger pull weights for many modern military style NM rifles.

To give you an idea of the work involved, please go the following thread and look at my posts numbers, Post#1563224 and Post#1563465. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/299896/post/1563224/#1563224

One thing I did not mention in that thread, but mentioned in others was you have to be VERY careful the nose of the sear will not hit the half cock notch on the tumbler, as tumbler revolves forward. The way I check that is remove the mainspring, sear spring and bridle. Get out a magnifying glass or visor. Hold the tumbler and you carefully pull the sear to JUST where it comes off full cock notch. Then hold the sear in that position as you slowly revolve the tumbler forward. If the sear nose hits the half cock, then file down the top of the half cock until it clears the sear held in that position. Now, this is not absolutely necessary as long as when you pull the trigger that you NEVER relax the tension on the trigger as the lock functions. However, if your finger slips or relaxes too soon, it will break off the top of the half cock notch, so that's why I do it all the time.

Gus

P.S. If all you ever do is reenact with your new Bess and only shoot a few live rounds, I may suggest you not have a full trigger job done. They are naturally more robust and will last longer when subjected to the punishment that can be done during reenacting, the way they come from the factory.

 

[curator]

SgtErv,
I assume yours will have the Grice 1762 marked lock. I have had one for 20+ years and it has seen a lot of use. I am certain if you have "thread-counter" hardcore reenactors in your group they can tell you everything that is wrong with it. Yes there are a few historical inaccuracies but the musket is a sturdy, well-made gun. The Pedersoli markings are on the left side at the breech and can be easily removed with a file and some emery-cloth. Luckily the barrel was "armoury bright" so you won't have to refinish, only polish the barrel when you are done.

The heavy trigger pull is often exacerbated by the sear or lock screws being too tight. A reasonably heavy trigger is actually a safety measure. The gun won't go off unless you really mean it. These guns were not meant to be "aimed" only fired on command with a jerk on the trigger. Aiming was considered immoral and akin to murder. Recruits were encouraged to close their eyes when firing as well. (kept flint chips and sparks out of their eyes)

You may find that getting a .735 ball loaded with a .010 patch a real chore using the original ramrod. The Brits did not use a ball this size, but several sizes smaller like .696-.700, and wrapped in paper cartridge, not cloth patch. I have the Lyman .735 round ball mould and do shoot these in my Bess, unpatched. Even the sprue mark sticking up gives me trouble loading. I have found that tumbling the balls for a couple of hours to smooth out the sprue results in a slightly "dimpled" ball that loads and shoots quite well without patching of any kind.

I also drilled out the (incorrectly positioned) touch hole and installed an threaded AMPCO touch hole liner, greatly improving both ignition speed and reliability and assisting in cleaning. As you know the Bess' barrel is pinned into the stock. The threaded touch hole liner makes cleaning much easier with a threaded nipple and plastic hose, and less chance for water to get in between stock and barrel which is a real problem with this model.

Enjoy your Bess, it was the world's first "Assault rifle." I am going to be shooting mine in my back yard tomorrow to accompany the local fireworks. (blanks, obviously)

 

[Grenadier1758]

As a historical reenactor, I have seen a lot of 2nd model Land Pattern muskets. It is not necessary to remove the warningsame on the barrel. A lot of metal can be removed and while not unsafe, isn't needed unless you absolutely can't stand the warnings.

As far as shooting goes, you are just going to have to figure out what your bess wants. The 0.735 ball on a wad is as likely to be accurate on target as the same ball in a lubricated patch.

 

[Artificer]

The heavy trigger pull is often exacerbated by the sear or lock screws being too tight. A reasonably heavy trigger is actually a safety measure. The gun won't go off unless you really mean it. These guns were not meant to be "aimed" only fired on command with a jerk on the trigger. Aiming was considered immoral and akin to murder. Recruits were encouraged to close their eyes when firing as well. (kept flint chips and sparks out of their eyes)

With sincere respect, the British Army began teaching soldiers to deliberately aim their muskets in the FIW and was standard practice by the AWI here in the colonies. This from their practice of "shooting at marks" to increase their overall accuracy. Soldiers with the highest scores in Companies and Regiments were often rewarded with a prize of some sort by their Officers.

Gus

Here is a good link on the subject. https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/08/the-aim-of-british-soldiers/

 

[Artificer]

Back in the 70's when I competed with my NA Brown Bess Carbine, we used the .735 ball because that was the closest mould size available to the .753 bore size in most NA muskets then. I used a lubed pillow ticking or other heavy cloth patch. However with that load, you HAVE to use a short starter, that is not HC/PC.

I would advise you have the muzzle diameter checked with a pair of precision dial calipers so you can adjust the patch size to the ball and barrel.

Gus

 

[curator]

Artificer,

I am always pleased when either you or Alden comes forward and corrects those of us with less-than-perfect research. I suspect I got too much of my information from Bernard Cornwell. As a sometimes-reenactor at Fort Niagara in my ill-spent youth I bought into the "close your eyes" myth. It did keep sparks and flint chips out of my eyes, and I believed as gospel. Correct or not, it is good advise for reenactors without eye protection.

Barron Von Steuben in his: "Regulations for the Order and Discipline of the Troops of the United States" suggested green troops be encouraged to close their eyes upon firing as was done in Continental armies of the time.

Thanks again for your kind comments!

 

[Artificer]

P.S. If all you ever do is reenact with your new Bess and only shoot a few live rounds, I may suggest you not have a full trigger job done. They are naturally more robust and will last longer when subjected to the punishment that can be done during reenacting, the way they come from the factory.

A little more on this subject. One thing I have found WAY too often in WBTS and AWI reenacting was "supposed experts" who "check or inspect" the operation of the half cock by pounding on the rear of the hammer/cock or pushing it with a lot of force. When those "supposed experts" do that on locks that don't have trigger jobs done, they often/usually RUIN the half cock notch and yes, even on original muskets that had better quality parts an no trigger work done at all.

The correct HC/PC and modern method to check the half cock is to set the hammer/cock on half cock and turn the musket upside down with the barrel pointing towards the ground. Then put you trigger finger on the trigger, but don't pull the trigger. Then hold the musket by the trigger finger ONLY in the upside down position. If the half cock holds correctly, it passes the test.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Curator,

I am always pleased when you bring out corrective period information as well. :hatsoff:

About 8 years ago a very good friend had copies of most of the 18th century British Manuals of Arms and I had a chance to go through them thoroughly. As a former Drill Instructor, he was very interested in all of them and was unbelievably good at all of them. At least one or two of them mentioned having the soldiers look to the right when firing to shield their eyes, but I don't remember off the top of my head which ones they were. I do remember they were Pre FIW, though. So there was more evidence British Soldiers were taught that in earlier periods, before they began to teach aiming during the FIW.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

3. Loads - I'm going to start with a .735 ball and .020 patch. 70gr Goex 2F. Plan on doing paper cartridges too. What do your alls like?

Any other particulars, feel free to chime in.

That's approximately what works best in mine, but 80 grains of 1f with the same in the pan for a mild "target" load. Haven't taken any game with it, but 100 grains of 1f is even more accurate and has noticeably more "boot" to the rear.

Dunno how it will fit in with your reenacting/range uses, but you're missing the bet with a Bess if you don't also develop a shot load or two. I probably fire 50 shot loads for every round ball, using it mostly for hunting. My optimum load is 1 5/8 oz of #4 or #5 shot on top of 120 grains of 1f. That has a lot more range potential than you'd guess with a CYL barrel, reliably taking game to 30 yards.

 

[Artificer]

Since you do reenacting, you probably will eventually get around to at least thinking about a British "Y" shaped musket tool for your Bess.

Under the heading of all you ever wanted to know and perhaps some things you didn't want to know, you might find this old thread interesting:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/..."y"+SHAPED+MUSKET+TOOLS/fromsearch/1/#1410079

Gus

 

[SgtErv]

My group, so to speak, is the interpretive staff at Prickett's Fort State Park. They've not filed off the markings on the Navy Arms muskets on the walls. Granted, they are quite old and the brown patina hides it pretty well. They'd be fine with the markings, really. I probably will be, too, as I try to always err on the safe side.

The trigger job...hmm...I can't say I've ever handled a trigger that heavy. I could probably get used to it. If I can't I may have it done. Our blacksmith is also an accomplished gunsmith. He's kept those Navy Arms muskets firing for a long time!

Gus, I'll definitely post pics of the inside of the lock. May help me determine whether I want to fiddle with it.

I do wonder why the Grice marking became the choice for production as opposed to "Tower." :idunno:

I did order both .735 and .715 to figure out what it likes. What do you guys use for wadding? I definitely want to make cartridges! That's pretty much a must.

In time I hope to find a Rev War unit to join, but I've come to love my time at the fort all the same. Me and couple of other guys are the unofficial militia soldiers for now. Wouldn't mind recruiting a squad of volunteers!

 

[Artificer]

First, the mainspring is not altered for a trigger job. I only mentioned there was an Old and New Style in case you ever have to replace it. You may never need to replace it. I shot my Carbine a whole lot in the 70's for competition and never needed to replace it.

Many years ago I asked Val Forget, Jr. why the Bess had the Grice marking. He told me the original they took to Italy to have copied, had that marking and date on it. That also probably explains why some other things are not quite correct on the reproductions.

The original ball size used in the Bess Cartridge was supposed to have been .690 and the original Bore Sizes ran .760 to .780. Now the actual ball sizes from 18th century British Military Site excavations across North America have shown some balls in the .690" diameter, but many more were .700 to .710." That meant they worked with at least .050" difference between ball and bore diameter to wrap paper around the balls for cartridges.

So that means cartridges made with .735 diameter balls are going to be tighter in your .751 to .754 bore. The .715 size ball will more likely work better for cartridges, but won't be as accurate as a patched or wadded .735 ball.

Gus

 

[nwtradegun]

don't buy and balls till you receive it. they are notorious for having different bore diameters. mine was a 729 had to get 715 balls.

 

[Rifleman1776]

don't buy and balls till you receive it. they are notorious for having different bore diameters

True. Worth repeating.

don't buy and balls till you receive it. they are notorious for having different bore diameters

I forget the inside diameter of my Navy Arms BB. But, I use a .731" ball cast from a Dixie 'hair straightener' mould. Mould works quite well. I 'sorta' tuned the trigger many-many years ago and it is now livable. Gives a good pattern also with shot. Next to an unmentionable I sold because my tore up old shoulders cannot hold up any more, it is, IMHO, the mostest, funnest gun to shoot there is. Wish I could still shoot it. Hangs on wall above door in my 'Raymond' office because it is too tall for my gun safe. BTW, never shoot a ball at a hard, stationary target. :shake: That big 'ole punkin ball wil bounce back with deadly force. DAMHIK :redface:

 

[Many Klatch]

I have a Pedersoli Bess Carbine. It likes the .715 ball, 90 grains of 2F and a .010 spit patch. I have hit a 36" gong at 100 yards with it 3 out of 5 times with it. The trigger pull was reduced by the former owner to about 4 pounds. A notch filed on top of the breech will help with horizontal hold. A notch filed on top of the bayonet lug will help as well.

 

[SgtErv]

Good advice, all. A gent at the fort today has the same model and has been casting a bunch of balls for it. He, too, mentioned that I'll have to measure the bore.

Rifleman, that's really good to hear how fun it is to shoot.

I am most looking forward to loading in a military fashion. My rifle doesn't quite allow for speedy loading, even though I've got it down pretty well. Reckon I can get it down pretty fast with cartridges and some practice in this gal.

 

[Artificer]

A few further thoughts since you intend to shoot cartridges and probably from a period way to carry them.

You are still slender enough to use what they called a Cartridge Box and what we call a Belly Box today. However, I would advise you not get one. Back when I was still in good shape and used the Cartridge Box, it was not very comfortable and got in the way. But, too bad, we Highlanders used them in the period, so we reenactors did the same.

Prior to that I used what they called a Cartridge POUCH and what we call a Cartridge Box with an over the shoulder sling. These are MUCH more comfortable and only slightly slower than the Cartridge Box to use.

During the FIW, British Soldiers wore both their Cartridge Box and their Cartridge Pouches, but by the AWI when the Cartridge Pouches were designed to carry more cartridges, so they usually did not wear the Cartridge Box for most of the British Infantry with the exception of some Light Infantry and Highlanders.

Just something to think about.

Gus